Hello Grant,

Thank you for your time and effort in making your latest photographs available to the GD community. I will be digesting them at leisure.

With best regards and thanks.

Frederick J. Stephens

Back on Top..................very interesting thread that was written 3 years ago and that should be preserve.

Marked or unmarked ?

Pat, great work here. It makes me wonder how many chained NSKKs have been relagated to the "fake" pile that may have been real???
Ron Weinand

Thanks Ron !
Randal, without a doubt, unmarked RZM Chained.

you guys are right! A great topic even for us non dagger collecting guys ...

BUT, its a 05 topic and will soon be in danger of disappearing! Copy it your selves,,or contact the Moderator and get him to start a new topic and move this one into it...

Here is the back of the same chain.

Good move Pat ,thanks

Randal, just like I thought, it ain't an Assman RZM marked chain, however, the unmarked chained could very well be this specific RZM marked that you are showing us.
Among more than 30 ++ NSKK Chained dagger that I have seen, it is the first one that I see with a marked chained box.
The connectors, the chain clip and chained box are definitily from the unmarked RZM NSKK vintage.
This maker marked is unique and the first one ever accountered.

Can anyone tell me who is this specific maker marked ?

M3/23 is "Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik, Geislingen, Wurttemberg" who were makers of party emblems according to Fisher.

Hello,

the german dealer Helmut Weitze is selling one of these daggers https://www.weitze.net/cgi-bin/cat-art-index.pl?art_no=...ik=34_7&lang=e&kat=1

The price is 45.000 euros.

Greetings, René

Pat, This chain is connected to a rzm marked NSKK Marine dagger, M7/66 1939.

Randal.

Randal, thanks for the new info, I have never seen or accountered a Marine NSKK M36.
Perhaps, they have their own unique configuration ? I just don't know.
I'm merely talking about the "regular" Chained NSKK M36.

I have seen a few M36 NSKK Marine's. Some were real and some were not. Of the real ones, most were M5/8 marked. One had no markings. This is the first one with the M3/23 marking that I've seen. I do not think there is any difference in the regs between standard M36s and marine M36s other than finish. Which was done to complement the dark blue uniform.
Randal.

Just out of curiousity, is there any photographic evidence of a Chained Marine NSKK in wear ?

I'm also under the impression that all unmarked Chained could've been manufactured by "Wurttembergische M3/23".
This is the first actual evidence that we have that Wurttembergische could be the "unknown" manufacturer of those unmarked M36 NSKK.

I'm with you Pat. The difference in the stamping of the assman marked chains and the umarked chains is considerable, so much that they could not be the same maker. I've always felt that unmarked examples were field upgrades, the fitting of the center ramp sometime shows this. When I found this mark on this example, I compared it to quite a few unmarked NSKK chains. They match.
I think M3/23 is the unknown maker also, and have ever since finding this marking on one of my daggers several years ago. Randal.

We know that M7 was for dagger manufacturers and that M1 was for Day Badges and pins. M5 was for attaching rings and M4 was for Belt Buckles. So what was M3 for and why would Assmann use M5 (correct for attachments) and not the M3 company???
Ron Weinand

Good point Ron, I hadn't thought of the M3 and to be quite honest with you, I have no clear answer.

The RZM Codex states
M1-Insignia M9-Meeting Badges
M2-Subcontractors M10-Musical Insturments
M3-Symbols or Emblems M11-NSDAP ser.medals
M4-Belt Buckles M12 Min. ser. medals
M5-Uniform Accessiories
M6-Aluminum Products
M7-Daggers
M8-Metal Accessories
I do not know how accurate the codex is, but most rzm products that are marked tend to reflect this list.
Randal.

This is not a complaint as I oftentimes have problems with closeups myself. But I like to get really, really close to look at the small details of any stamped (or cast) item to see if I can pick up any clues as to exactly how something was made. That said, I did not see anything particularly amiss with what was posted, and while the alternate RZM marked example is unusual. Uncommon or newly discovered items are found even at this late date.

I was wondering about the use of the M3 myself, as it is normally associated with things like NS motif items that go on the end of flag poles. A fairly large company, Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik prior to the war was engaged in making dinnerware, cutlery, and similar items from metal. During the war it made small arms and ammunition components.

Besides the M5 items, Assmann had separate licenses for insignia and badges, belt buckles, meeting badges, and long service medals.

I’m just thinking out loud, but if I had to make a guess using the information at hand: It would be that the Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik was given a ‘one shot deal’ to make the chain links. And did not bother to go through through the process of getting an M5 license, instead giving the RZM it’s percentage using its M3 license. The links got made. The RZM got its money. And everybody went home happy. FP

Here to give this very deserving thread a little bump, and also to add this little bit of info found here
This opinion, which seems squarely in agreement to those stated thus far concerning the superior quality of the earlier unmarked chains. Not sure what hes talking about saying they have a vaulted look to them though.

`````````````````````````````````````````````

Early examples of the chain dagger were made from nickel silver whilst the later daggers were made from nickel-plated steel.

Eickhorn subcontracted the making of the chains to F W Assman and Sohne. Each chain was stamped with the RZM code of M5/8 (F W Assman and Sohne) and also Musterschutz NSKK – Korpsfurung (Copyright of the NSKK High Command). Note that there are other makers of this chain, the most common is the RZM 5/8. There are chains that have No markings and are 100% period made. These unmarked chains are of the highest quality and are 100% better than the Assman made chains is all respects. The period made unmarked chains have a vaulted look to them.