Hello,

In an earlier discussion it was proposed that the as yet unseen in person panzer police green eagle might have a "white" swastika. This was based on a reference book graphic.

In that discussion I opined that such a white swastika was unlikely as it did not fit in with the color schemes observed on other police eagles on dark backgrounds such as Wasserschutzpolizei and Feuerwehr eagles. I suggested that a green eagle with green swastika or green eagle with black swastika was more probable.

Today I ran across this photo. Although fine detail cannot be seen it is quite clear that the swastika on this eagle is NOT white and in my opinion looks to be the same color as the eagle itself, meaning GREEN.

I think that this is pretty clear evidence that all green on black eagles were produced and worn. I still believe that green and black eagles are also possible.

Notice also the piped wrap tunic and black piped cap.......VERY rare uniform, and photo. Too bad it is selling for 1350Euros with the guy's award documents!

Regards,
William Unland

Bill, excellent picture and what an interesting grouping! Only wish I had the extra funds!

These types of pictures always make me open up Werner Regenberg's excellent reference book: Armored Vehicles and Units of the German Order Police(Ordnungspolizei) 1936-1945. On page 212 there is a picture that closely supports the above. Also, On page 211 there is another picture that clearly depicts the 3 feather sleeve insignia in wear.

Bill

I agree, great photo but a little pricey to say the least. Although you have to love the "Hanging out at the Portrait Studio having a Smoke" pose !!!

Andrew

Bill

Pulled my post over from the other thread, since it fits in better here with the "Panzer Title"

Andrew

Just got the Angolia / Taylor book yesterday and have been pouring over it. Great reference.

Interesting enough, I came across the BLD photo I had previously posted. They did it in B&W. So, curiosity piqued, I began to read the section on the Uniform for Personnel of Armored Vehicles:

"Field Jacket:.....The police national sleeve emblem for officers was in aluminum hand embroidery with black swastika on a black field, while that of EM/NCOs was green with a black swastika. It is possible that the machine woven gray emblem with a gray swastika on a black field was also worn late in the war."

Which design(gray on black)would this be? Is this the same design as the old garrison cap insignia, except larger?

Then was going through the older threads cause I'm bored this evening and I came across a posting with a photo. Is this the Gray on Black patch?



http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1653059744/m/26910301

Andrew, Take a look at this link, I suspect this is what you are asking about.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1653059744...260067072#8260067072

Dear Andrew,

I don't believe that nice photo shows a gray on black eagle as shown here. Different shape. I believe it is an ALL green eagle, which to me makes a lot of sense, and would be in keeping with the Feiuerwehr eagles all carmine on dark navy. I also believe these were made in green with a black swastika.

Regards,
Bill Unland

Here is the real deal taken from the book I am currently working on, unfortunately the eagle is not mine.

Gary,

Thanks for posting. THAT is the eagle I imagined. This is the first I have ever seen. This has got to be the rarest EM police eagle there is, much harder to find than a TENO! AND a three feather to boot. Quite amazing!

Regards,
William Unland

Gary,

Can you do me a favor and take a picture of that bird against a black background like your panzer tunic. Maybe it is your lighting but that bird's background looks almost dark gray. Plus a photo of the back.

Thanks

Joe

OK Guys

So in reality are we talking about at least four (04) patches that would have been ok for the Panzer Wrap:

1. Bullion (Officer)- 3 Feather
2. Green on Black w/ Black Swasitka (EM/NCO)- 6 Feathers (Hanswursts)
3. Green on Black w/ Green Swastika (EM/NCO)- 3 Feather (Gary8's)
4. Gray on Black w/ Gray Swasitka (EM/NCO)- 6 Feathers (Bevo)

Andrew

Andrew,

I think your eagle list is accurate for the black wrapper. It is simply that these things are so seldom seen that it is difficult to be precise. I would accept original examples of these eagles as proper insignia.

Since you bring up the bullion officer eagle, this raises yet another issue. An aluminum wire on black background officer eagle already existed as a Feuerwehr Officer eagle. I would imagine that this same eagle could have been worn on the black Panzer wrap but that does not really make it a Panzer Police eagle of course.

P.S. I agree with Bill that the eagles shown in the period photographs show the green eagle. Compare the shade of the sleeve eagles to the cap eagles.

George

Hello hanswurst the backing material is slightly grey because I had to highlight the picture to show the greenmore clearly and I had to highlight it again to get the construction of the eagle, I am still waiting for a picture of yours to add to the book.

Here are a couple more officers that could also go.

Could there have been a generals eagle? Did a police panzer General exist?

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by ORPO: I think your eagle list is accurate for the black wrapper. It is simply that these things are so seldom seen that it is difficult to be precise......
Since you bring up the bullion officer eagle, this raises yet another issue. An aluminum wire on black background officer eagle already existed as a Feuerwehr Officer eagle. I would imagine that this same eagle could have been worn on the black Panzer wrap but that does not really make it a Panzer Police eagle of course.....I agree with Bill that the eagles shown in the period photographs show the green eagle. Compare the shade of the sleeve eagles to the cap eagles.

George

I will say this, German patches will make your head spin !!!

In regards to your comment about the Feuer / Panzer officer patch. I agree, it would be EXTREMELY hard to say for certainity that a bullion patch was actually a Panzer used version, unless it came off a wrap. Just by virtue of the sheer volume of Feuerwehr versions, the propesnity is to lean towards the fact that it is more than likely a Feuer version.

You know, I looked at the photo again and I will defer to you and Bill on this. The hat patch / shoulder rank were throwing me. But comparing the patch coloring to the piping I see similarities. My first thought was the hat patch is / was white.

Andrew

Gary , Thanks ,I like the eagle you posted. I 'm posting this eagle and now you know why I was asking.Just to note I have it hanging infront of a piece of a police green material. I also forward you the photo you asked for, good luck.......
Joe

Thought I would add a better picture to this thread. Two birds with one stone, green eagle and 3 wing.

Gary

Holy........ What a great photo !!!!!

Thanks for sharing that gem.

Andrew

hi all
its here,its here, my 3 feathered eagle

>Police Generals...?<

Borrowing an idea from W-SS Gnl. "Sepp" Dietrich:

d'you suppose Police seniors - since historically generals 'round the world often alter the norm - wear GOLD bullion sleeve or other eagles, as did Dietrich?

Granted, Dietrich was the only
(known) SS gnl. to sport gold wire insignia - he "illegally" also wore ARMY eagles on his peaked cap! Also, recall that for a time SS/Police Gnl. "dummi dummi" Daluege wore those odd collar tabs - gold embroidery of green, right?

Yet if that happened, without provenance or ref material or documents how'd you know something that turned up today was a "gold Police generals eagle" rather than one for an ordinary Wasserschutzpolizei officer?

So I'm just speculating and curious. Truly It's all a bit maddening. Cheers!

Inimicus,

Police General Officers did in fact wear gold police eagles as they were regulation for the General rank.

Hello,

As George has mentioned police generals wore gold eagles. WSP officers also wore gold eagles but on a dark navy blue badge cloth. There were NO WSP generals so all gold on blue eagles were WSP, and gold on green and white would be for general officers.

Dread,

Looks like you have a 3 feathered Luftschutzpolizei there...very nice.

Regards,
Bill Unland

Ah thanks gents! added some much-needed clarity to my confused mind...

if SS cloth is dangerous 'coz of the volume of fakes, Police cloth seems equally so 'coz there're still some questions about various aspects of regulation changes, wartime inconsistencies due to supply problems etc.

Very educational; always enjoy reading the specialists' threads! Cheers.

Another three-feather eagle! This makes me think that I really need to upgrade my tattered example some day.

i diden`t know that a 3FE Luftschutzpolizei
existed

Dread,

I think that this manufacturer made eagles for all the branches. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 3 feather WSP show up someday.

We have already seen, SchuPo, Gend, FeldGend, and now LuSchuPo, why not the other branches as well!

Regards,
Bill Unland