Gentlemen,

Let's discuss this tunic. Is it a very convincing fake or something else?

This tunic is entirely against police regulations in that it is made in the manner of a Heer parade uniform. It has no breast pockets, no hip pockets, and is cut in the parade tunic style with a separate skirt below the waist.

View of the insignia. Notice that the shoulder boards are removable. Notice also that it has the standard 8 button front of the 1936 Polizei tunic and the Heer parade tunic. The tunic is manufactured in standard police green cloth.

View of the back of the tunic showing the separate skirt and the Heer parade tunic tail. Notice the three button cut to the tail instead of the two button tail of the police.

I have seen several of these tunics floating around that all came from Germany and from somewhat "iffy" sources.

This tunic has a very convincing Hoffmann label along with a named and dated Hoffmann name tag. There are quite a few reproduction labels and tags in high end reproduction uniforms. Is this one?

What are your thoughts on this tunic? Let's get a good discussion going.

George

This is the one on ebay for 800, right

Hello,

I remember a discussion of these "parade" tunics some time back. It is indeed convincing but like you say, totally against regulations and never seen in a photograph in wear. I am not aware that the police ever gave up their traditional uniforms in favor of army style. They continued to wear cartridge boxes on crossbelts 100 years after the army gave that up.

I can't imagine where this would have been worn. Could it have been intended as some "feldgendarmerie" waffenrock? The eagle appears to be an authentic pattern. It would cost more than its worth to remanufacture this so I am baffled. If Police Gendarmerie, why would the rural cops need such a tunic? This thing just doesn't make sense, but I can't say it isn't real !

Regards,
Bill Unland

Bob,

This one is not on ebay but is currently on Manion's. I have seen two on ebay and one on epier before though. Can you post a link to the one on ebay so we can compare it?

Bill,

I considered the possibility of these being Feldgendarmerie tunics but if that were the case, the cuffs and collar should not be brown and the body should be Feldgrau, just like the Heer parade tunics. I have also never seen a parade tunic like this with removable shoulder boards. Too many inconsistencies. The Feldgendarmerie parade tunic should look just like the orange piped recruiting one, except it should not have the Wehrkreis cyphers on the shoulder boards, IMO.

George

Bill
You are right

I found it on manions after i posted here.

I think that I've seen this tunic before. This looks very much like one that was for sale on e-pier by Jim Calhoun. I think it was dicussed here on GDC at some point. Does anybody remember that discussion, or that tunic? This looks like the same one, no?

FOUND IT! Whatta you guys think? If it's not the same tunic, then it has a brother!

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/165305...413089457#4413089457

I think that we have a match... DING, DING, DING! What did I win?!

Dear Johann,

YES same tunic, same eagle. And that is the discussion I remember from before.

Regards,
Bill Unland

Hey Bob Rodgers, when did you become a certified dealer?

"Luke, I am your father. Come with me, to the DARK SIDE of the Force"...

George,

This is one tunic that will probably never be explained.
It looks real enough to me. It seems like the last tunic that someone would want to put time and effort into faking.
Is the material really police blue/green. To me it looks like an army waffenrock that was reused by a soldier and converted by his tailor when he got transferred over to the Police in a rural town. Or, perhaps the tailor put it together post war for a police man using a left over waffenrock (without the eagle) due to the shortages of materials. The eagle could have been added recently.
Just a guess.
Doug

Sorry guys dont mean to rain on all you good fellows parade. Here is a picture of the jacket in wear from Ernst's web site. The only difference I can see is that the picture is a six button front. Ernst attributes this as school uniform

Well my friend Gary,

You do seem to locate the photographs; three feathered sleeve eagles, bullion cap eagles, etc. I wish you would find that 6 feathered bullion cap eagle next!

That said, I can only make the following comments: there are no known regulations dealing with this tunic, that said it appears to exist, just like the anomolies listed above.

OK lets assume this tunic was in fact "used", the next question would be where and by whom. The "school" conjecture doesn't seem to fit as the photo and the tunic both have badges and award loops. You wouldn't expect the wearing of awards by new guys at school now would you?
Second, these tunics were expensive and difficult to manufacture, why would you issue them to guys that might not even complete the program? The "school" idea doesn't work for me. Also why orange piping. The Gendarmerie wasn't in charge of training to my knowlwdge. I might buy it if it were the TEACHERS wearing these in their capacity at a school, but how could that ever been proven.

Now to the "parade" idea. NUMEROUS photo exist of cops at parades and in parades, often with Hitler, Himmler, etc in attendance, and none of them are wearing this tunic, so the "special parade tunic" theory doesn't work. I can buy into the theory that these were used for some "special" purpose, like standing guard at the police ministry or some such unknown assignment, but again why orange.

I am starting to think, that since police tunics were for the most part private purchase, these were "optional" interpretations of the uniform available for purchase by those nco's with too much money and an overactive fashion sense.

We all know guys want to stand out, and actually this tunic is not so different from the service tunic, except it has no pockets. I can't really think of any other options. Like others have said, pocket-less tunics were traditional in some jurisdictions, perhaps guys from those areas continued the tradition after the uniforms were nationalized, and the tailors used the army waffenrock pattern as a guide.

I am afraid any theory regarding these will be guessing and conjecture, until Joe or one of the others who has access to records and regulations can find some obscure reference to such a tunic.

I think there is a lot of the period we have no clue about, and particularly regarding the police and fire services, I think uniform regulations were rather loosely interpreted.

Regards,
Bill Unland

I’m not so sure that picture provides sufficient photographic evidence to support the tunic in question. We are only seeing one angle of the tunic making it rather difficult to confirm this is the same as the example in question. The photo is in B&W, making it impossible to determine color. Is this “school” known? Is this simply another example of an earlier tunic used for school purposes, just with the insignia changed out and a trick of lighting? Is this a modified drill tunic? Seems to be lots of questions and as seen several times before, some people are a little hasting in thinking they have found a photo of a special uniform/feature to fill a hole. Personally, I would have to see a little more to support the tunic in question.

An excellent discussion guys! I have many of the same thoughts as you. The one thing that is certain is that it is not a regulation police tunic.

It does appear to be the exact same tunic that Calhoun was trying to sell on epier. Good call Johann. Now it is at Manion's. Interesting how some items make the circut.

I also agree with Dave that the tunic on Ernst's site is similar, but not identical, to this tunic. This is very intrigueing but Bill puts forth a good critique as well. The tunic on Ernst's site looks to me to be an older transitional tunic with a six button front and a single button on the cuffs, while the tunic in question is no doubt later.

I just don't know, but I would certainly like to hold this example in my hand. I just don't want to pay for the priviledge or own it.

George

Dear ORPO,

I didn't notice the single cuff button. Good Obs. Does seem to be a pre-nazi era tunic then doesn't it.

Regards,
Bill U

Great point about the single button cuff George! I was looking at it but just couldn't remember if it was an trait of an earlier tunic and if I was just seeing something else. Anyway, I'm glad you commented on that.

About the picture Gary posted from my website:

It is a detail from a groupportret of three men standing in front of some buildings. The back has writing on it:
"Ausbildungslehrgang, Juni 1940"

This guy is the only one of the three that wears rank-insignia (collartabs, shoulderboards). His rank is Wachtmeister.
This guy is wearing the following medals:
a DRL-sportsbadge, an SA-sportabzeichen and somesort of small round "pin" above the two.

The theory of the tunic in the photo being a pre-1936 era tunic is plausible as the tunic has smooth, shiny buttons mostly seen in the pre-1936 period

Ernst,

Thanks for the description of the photograph. I agree the photo probably shows an earlier tunic. These old style tunics were used quite a lot by schools and for fatigue, even after the "wearing out" period. So, 1940 would not be out of the question for "Ausbildungslehrgang" use.

Ernst, have you ever seen any regs for a Gendarmerie parade tunic such as this one under discussion?

George

I agree with all statements below the photo, well spotted on the button I did not even notice. I gues I will just have to buy it and pass it around for inspection.

I did have one of these in the past, and I wish I still had it, at the time it was cheeper than it is now. I must say that everything about it looked and felt OK.

George,
No I have never encountered a regulation describing such a tunic.

I do believe this tunic to be authentic. If it had been a fake then I would expect more of these to float around. Also the effort in reproducing a Heer parade tunic in Police green cloth is not a smart thing to do for a faker.....I would think

I think this tunic is a transitional piece from the time large numbers of Motorisierte Gendarmerie were transferred into the Wehrmacht Feldgendarmerie. Photographs have survived were full Polizei outfit is being worn while allready in WH service.
One example of such a photograph you can find on my website under "Organisation/transition into army" where the second photo from the top shows a man wearing a Polizei tunic (including brown cuffs) but with added Heer eagle.

Maybe....in this transitional period.. there was a parade once that required new tunics made....and thus the tunic under discussion might have come alive