Where any WW11 DRESS BAYONETS produced with a dull parkarized finish. Have a dress fireman's
short bayonet WCK blade is plated but hilt is dull grey ? no slot variety

Paul

Hi Paul,

I can't speak for any bayonets other than firemans' bayonets but to my knowledge they were not produced with parkerized finishes. Some just acquire that look due to polishing or thin plating over time. I should also point out that every fire bayonet I have seen from Peter Dan Krebs has had this type finish on it's pommel, I've seen maybe a dozen. This is true even on mint pieces by the same maker, the pommels from Peter Krebs always exhibit the "unplated" type finish.

HI , thanks for the reply do you know if these are being reproduced ? This is certainly a well made piece the only red flag I see are high dome rivets on the girps

PAUL

Some second model Luftwaffe and other daggers had zinc phosphate finishes. Which from a technical standpoint is a Parkerized like finish - but not a proprietary one. And some (bare metal) zinc edged weapon fittings have a matte gray appearance. Any chance for pictures so that there is a visual aid to what is being discussed? FP

Here is a pic just trying to learn my new camera

Paul

Hi Paul,

Here's a pic of one of the lobster logo Krebs FWs I've owned. For some reason this maker's fire bayonets all seem to display the same finish, or lack thereof on their pommels. I also have one by Zeitler with 85% of that finish and a little of the original plating left. The only difference is that the Krebs' pieces look as if they never had a plate over them whereas the Zeitler obviously had a thin layer.

What I think that I’m seeing is puzzling. Paul’s example looks to have an aluminum (?) cross guard with a matte gray pommel that is too even a finish IMO to be natural - which suggests that it is a chemically passivated zinc if it’s heavier than a comparable aluminum pommel. Billy’s example seems to be similar having a cross guard made of (?). The thing that makes Billy’s all the more interesting is the blade which looks to be nickel plated in combination with the rest (assuming nickel plating was eliminated to save the metal for other uses as seen with some late items).

I don’t know fire uniforms, but did some of them have matte gray buttons to match?? FP

Here is what I think I am seeing... Both hilts look to be unplated to me. This seems to be a white metal hilt (pot metal in the venacular) without plating. I think I see that the crossguard has been rubbed somewhat bright and the pommel is not on Billy's. If you polish this unplated metal it will take on a rather dull polished glow. If you plate this white metal it will often wear or flake off as Billy describes with his Zeitler.

FP, you are more into metal finishing than I will ever be, but is this possibly what we are looking at? Billy's dull grey pommel is simply oxidized through age while the crossguard has been burnished by handling or whatever? The crossguard is also at the center of the flash and is angled while the pommel is flat and matt.

here is a miniature KS98 with an unpolished and unplated white metal hilt and a plated blade.

George, It very well could be as you say, but without seeing the hilts and crossguards really up close it’s a little bit of a tough call for me to say just what it is that we’re discussing. Unprotected zinc/pot metal when exposed to the atmosphere rapidly acquires a thin carbonate film which is what helps make it resistant to corrosion. Pot metal, which is normally over 90 percent zinc, is very often alloyed with other metals with “Hartzink” (5 percent iron 2-3 percent lead) being one example of a special purpose alloy. Some alloys don’t even appreciably tarnish. What we are dealing with here I think is a lower grade alloy in the sense that it probably doesn't use the scarcer, more costly, alloys. So if unprotected it does ultimately acquire a heavier oxide film (Zinc oxide itself is used as a commercial white pigment.).

An atmosphere induced film on the metal should be fairly smooth unless it’s exposed to something else. Nickel plating is permeable and if moisture penetrates underneath it will cause zinc to corrode and bubble and the plating to lift. What is usually seen in these cases is variable micropitting in the metal which in effect gives an object a dull appearing surface. In such cases most often that surface will be different in color from one location to another due to the uneven nature of the corrosion cells (like your miniature KS98 hilt).

A chemical passivation process like zinc phosphate (which is normally gray in color) will give zinc/pot metal a relatively consistent smooth matte finish with an even microcrystalline structure. It’s color and structure will be the same except for those areas where the finish is worn off. I think that is what I am seeing with Paul’s example - but it’s just not close enough to be sure about anything and I’m trying to cover the possibilities as best I can with what is available.

PS: I’m sorry for the long explanation. Unfortunately my photographs skills are not good enough to take pictures which could illustrate what I’m trying to explain.

FP

FP,

Thanks for the explanation. It was a clear description of a complex issue. Whatever this finish is, I have described it to myself over the years as unplated, which may or may not be technically correct but gives me a niche to put it in.

Perhaps more important is that this is a proper period finish (or non-finish). I think we can say to Paul that his FW bayonet finish is of the period. His FW Faschinenmesser appears perfectly proper to me, as does Billy's.

I have seen this same finish (or lack thereof) on other late war KS98. I see them on proper FW KS98 made by WKC with the grip eagle and on some late Eickhorn KS98 hilts as well. I think I see this same white metal hilt casting material peeking out beneath worn nickel finishes as well.

Here is what appears to be the same hilt finish on the unique WKC manufactured KS98 bayonet that is believed to be for the Feuerschutzpolizei. Notice the plated short sawback blade on this example. I might normally expect to see polished unplated blades with these unplated hilts but there are exceptions. Feuerwehr Seitengewehre are in those exceptions.

George

George, Let me throw this out for discussion as regards the "unfinished/non-finished" dress bayonets/sidearms. Many late German military officer's daggers were made with zinc fittings that had been phosphated. The extra coating helped protect the zinc fittings from the environment. And zinc was the material of choice for late dress items because first copper, then aluminum, and finally nickel became more necessary to the war effort and were withdrawn for use with nonmilitary items.

What are the odds of the same rationale being used with these late dress bayonets/sidearms? ie: Phosphated zinc when it became necessary to conserve nickel for military production?

If you will: A Third Reich late "Kreigsmodell" version of dress blades as was/is seen with some of the Imperial era sidearms.

FP

PS: Nice blade! And please make that "photographic" skills (or lack of same).

FP,

I don't disagree with your assessment at all. I think the late war so-called zinc badges can probably fall in the same category as well. Some of these later badges (i.e. assault badges) seemed to have plating or some sort of applied finish while others seem to have this same sort of unfinished greyish look. Phosphated zinc sounds OK to me but I will defer to your expertise as to the technical construct of the finish of this largely zinc white metal material. What the finish is not is the normally expected nickel plate.

George

Additional comment: “Parkerizing” itself was a proprietary process belonging to the Parker Company with its proprietary formulations of chemicals and processing. While the core technology for phosphating metals was available early in the 20th century - IMO the Germans were not at the leading edge and continued to rely on traditional methods of corrosion prevention until they were forced to change.

A good example of this I think is the below posted late 1944 vintage ‘sgx’ with the pommel having a finish coloration close to some of those already presented. The depth of finish (and to an extent coloration) is a function of time and temperature as well as the chemicals used. The 98k pommel is fairly lightly finished. Conversely, the point of the blade has a heavy finish layer - which means to me that it was probably suspended point down (from a conveyor belt) in a heated tank with burners at the bottom making the area at the bottom the warmest as the bayonet was run through the tank.

There were multiple application techniques. I don’t know that the one I described above was used for the dress sidearm pommels (and/or dagger parts) - but am trying to provide a basis for comparison for those who have an interest and are following this thread. FP

ORPO, THAT POLICE bayonet looks exactly like the finish on my bayonet to a T great thread and great input thanks all

PAUL