I have been asked several times over the years what is the most common or the most rare TMs on dress bayonets. To me Eickhorn and WKC seem to be the most common. What are the most rare. So if you guys would like to have some fun, list the most common 10 TM's and the 10 rarest TM's.

I am including Heer/Luft. and fireman bayonets.
There will be no wrong answers to this quiz.
We may do this with distributors later.

I am encluding my list to help.

A. Evertz
Aesculap, Tuttingen
Alexander Coppel
Anton Wingen
Arthur Schüttelhöffer & Co.
Baron = Gottfried Weyersberg, KG, Solingen
Boker
C.& Cie Lutters
C. Gustav Spitzer
Carl Schmidt & Sohn Solingen
Carl Eickhorn
Carl Grah
Carl Julius Krebs
Carl Aug Meis, Solingen
Carl Spizer Jr.
Curdts Nachf E. H. Otto (Curna)
Carl Wusthof
C. D. Schaaff
Christians, Solingen
Clemen & Jung
E.& C.HARTKOPF
E.& F. Horster
E. Pack & Shone
Emil Voos
Ernst Scharff, Kober & Co.
Ernst Knecht & Co. Solingen-Wüstenhof/Wuppertal
F. Plücker Jr.
F.W. Holler
Friedrichswerk, Solingen
Frisia Solingen, a version of Rich. Herder

G. Wyersburg
Gebr. Hartkopf, Solingen Pre-WWII
Gebruder Gräfath,--Gräniso
Grasoli
Gräwiso
Gust. Häker, Solingen
Heinrich Böker
HK
HMH (Hoppe & Homann, Hufeisenfk Minden in Westf)
Horstator
Hugo Köller, Stahlwarenfabrik
Hugo Linder Deltawerk Solingen
Josef Hack (Hack-Werke)
J.A. Henckels
J.Dirlam & Shone
Johann Leupold, (LEUCO) Byreuth
Klittermann & Moog
Küpper & Söhnius
Lauterjung (Tiger & Puma)
Max Weyersberg
Paul Seilheimer
Paul Weyersberg & Co.
Peter Dan Krebs
Paweco
P. D. Luneschloss
Peter Lungstrass
Pumeto,Solingen
Rau & Koch
Richard A. Herder
Richard Plümacher
Robert Klaas
Robert Schaaf
Rudolf Buchel
Rudolf Schmidt
SMF
WKC
Wilhelm Wagner, Solingen
Zeitler-Wien

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TKissinger,

Terry,
This would be excellent reference for collectors of TM's. You're right Eick appears to be the #1 common. When I get a chance to go thru my records I'll post my list sometime later in the week. It'll also be combined of Heer and FW's. It would be interesting to see how close I am with other collectors observations.
Regards, Steve.

Here is my unoffical list. Just my opinion

1=The most common

1-Eickhorn
2-WKC
3-E. Pack
4-Alcoso
5-Unmarked
6-Holler
7-Horster
8-Klaas
9-Tiger
10-Krebs
11-Puma
12-Voos



1=The rarest

1. The one I don’t know about
2. Pumeto
3. Rudolf Schmidt
4. Hugo Köller
5. Wilhelm Wagner
6. Rau & Koch
7. P. Lunstrass
8. Puma-Werk (Early TM)
9. F. Plucker
10. Fridrichswerk
11. Graniso
12. Grasoli
13. Grawiso
14. Carl Schmidt
15. Robert Schaff
16. Horstator
17. E. Scharff-Kober

Terry & Steve,

Great topic & a long time coming. From my individual observations which are primarily with regard to, but not completely limited to Feuerwehr pieces, here's some rare makers in no particular order. I've never graded them in terms of "most rare" to "least rare", "scarce" & so on but will try to in the future.

- P. Lüngstrass, Solingen-Ohligs
- Carl Grah, Solingen-Ohligs
- Max Weyersberg, Waffenfabrik, Solingen
- Klittermann & Moog GmbH, Solingen-Haan
- Gust. Häker, Solingen
- Robert Müller, Solingen (Crown Logo)
- Carl Aug. Meis GmbH, Solingen-Merscheid
- C.D. Schaaf
- Küpper & Sohnius, Solingen
- Ernst Scharf, Köber & Co., Frankfurt
- Friedrich Plücker Jr, Solingen-Gräfath
- Gebr. Gräfath, Solingen-Widdart
- Heinrich Böker, Solingen-Remscheid
- Hoppe & Homann, Hufeisenfabrik, Minden
- Arthur Schüttelhoffer, Solingen-Wald

About one year ago I did an analysis on around 200 dress bayonets (not firemen´s) that were then on offer on eBay and/or owned by fellow collectors. The picture that arose was as follows:

10% have no maker markings

80% had been produced by 10 companies:
Eickhorn 20%
Alcoso 9%
Pack 8%
WKC 8%
Klaas 8%
Hörster 6%
Höller 6%
Spitzer 5%
Puma 5%
Tiger 5%

The remaining 10% had been produced by at least 18 other companies:

Aesculap
R. Büchel
Curna
C. Grah
A. Evertz
J.A. Henckels
R. Herder
Klittermann & Moog
K.J. Krebs
P.D. Krebs
P. Lüneschloss
P. Seilheimer
C.R. Schaaf
G.D. Schaaff
C. Schmidt & Sohn
E. Voos
A. Wingen
C. Wusthof

Of these 18 the following seemed a bit more frequent:

Aesculap
Herder
Klittermann & Moog
Seilheimer
G.D. Schaaf
Voos
Wingen
Wusthof

Thanks to this thread I now know that there are more less common manufacturers, but they were not among the sample of 200 dress bayonets that I analysed.

Kilian

Here's the easy part, the top ten most common. This information was compiled out of 1000 bayonets, including FW's.

1. Eickhorn
2. E. Pack
3. WKC
4. Alcoso
5. E&F Horster
6. Holler
7. Klaas
8. Puma
9. Gustav Spitzer
10. Anton Wingen

O.K. guys, we're real close on our top ten. At times there were only 3-5 on the count separating one from the other. Now the hard part. This is a list in no particular order, because there were five or less of each of these.

1. Rudolf Buchel
2. Carl Schmidt
3. Carl Schaaff
4. SMF
5. Hack Werke
6. J.A. Henckels
7. Grasoli
8. Curna
9. Christians
10. Horstator

Since I kind of stopped at 1000, there are others more rare that keep coming to light. Like the three below and others. I based this on the fact that they were seen way after 1000.

Rudolf Schmidt
Ernst Kober
Hugo Koller

I have one or two here that didn't make my list at the time. Maybe we ought to concentrate on the top twenty rarist, with a count of what we have in our collections, and add a one new as they're found. I could add 20 names that I feel are tough to come by. It will be interesting to see how this thread grows in time.
Regards, Steve.

Terry,

Maybe we should come up with some sort of scale like Mike Mac did with SA daggers, a 1 to 10 scale based on number of examples seen?

If the Pareto principle (80-20 rule) is also applicable to dress bayonets, and 80% of dress bayonets (excluding firemen) have been produced by 10 companies, that would mean that there must have been around 50 companies making these (non-firemen) dress bayonets.

Terry´s list has more than 50 makers on it, but I recognise some as makers of firemen dress bayonets only. If these, as well as variations of trademarks by the same companies, were to be subtracted from the list, my guess would be that Terry would end up with about 50 manufacturers of non-firemen dress bayonets. So maybe Pareto is true for dress bayonets as well. Would you agree?

A complication to create a scarcity scale for dress bayonets by maker, in my view, is the fact that many of the makers used several variations of logo´s and trademarks over time. Eickhorn being a classic example.

My own rating was based purely on manufacturer, not on the variations of TM´s. Although a maker itself may not be rare, some variations of the logo/TM may be. Hörster is not a rare maker, but I don´t see the Horstator TM very often. The same applies to Pack. A common maker, but the full TM of Siegfried Waffen with the man with swinging hammer logo, though not rare, is less common. Would anybody know by the way when this logo was used by Pack? Mid-thirties?

I appreciate Steven C´s listing. Would it be possible to quantify it percentage-wise, like I have done? My feeling is that many (dozens) of makers fall in a category which is less than 1% of the total population.

Would appreciate your comments and thoughts,

Kilian

The only makers that I've seen only on Feuewehr bayonets were:

- Hoppe & Homann, Hufeisenfabrik, Minden (HMH logo)
- Küpper & Sohnius, Solingen (Intertwined KS logo)
- Ernst Scharf, Köber & Co., Frankfurt (Pelikan logo)

I'd love to know if there are more. That's not to say these companies didn't make other items, just that I've never seen these maker logos on anything but a FW bayonet.

That said, there are a number of distributors that to my knowledge distributed only Feuerwehr related items but I'm thinking this thread relates only to manufacturers.

Kilian,
I have a list that's a bit complicated that is of long and short of Heer and FW's by each maker, as well as how often I see it in stag or etched, including pioneer and RFV's, etc. It only goes to about a thousand, but I didn't count unmarked pieces or generic Solingen.I haven't had time to break it down into percentages yet. This would take a bit of time that I haven't had. I had mentioned something to Terry about it and haven't gotten back to him on it.

I like Billy's idea of keeping track of a list of what we can decide on is rare between 15-20, or something similar. As some of us know, some producers only did FW. We may have to stick with Heer to start with. Billy's got the additional info on the rarity of FW's.
Just a thought, Steve.

This was the list Billy G. had on his firemans bayonets before we lost it. Billy if there are more let me know and I will update it.

Names of companys that made Feuerwehr bayonets.

Alexander Coppel GmbH Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen
Anton Wingen, Jr., Solingen
Arthur Everetz, Solingen
Arthur Schüttlehöffer, Solingen-Wald
Baron (Gebruder Weyersberg)
C. Gustav Spitzer KG, Solingen
Carl Aug. Meis, Solingen
Carl Eickhorn, Solingen ('33-'34 logo, '35-'41 logo)
Carl Grah, Solingen-Ohligs
Carl Julius Krebs Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen
Carl Lütters & Cie, Solingen
Carl Robert Schaaf & Co., Solingen (Elk logo)
Carl Schmidt & Sohn, Solingen
Clemen & Jung, Solingen
Dan. Pet. Krebs, Solingen
E. & F. Hörster & Co., Waffenfabrik, Solingen
Emil Voos Waffenfabrik, Solingen
Ed Wüsthof, Dreizackwerk, Solingen
Ernst Pack & Söhne, Solingen
Ernst Scharff, Kober & Co, Frankfurt (Pelikan logo)
F. W. Höller, Waffenfabrik, Solingen
Friedrich Plücker, Jr., Solingen-Gräfath
Gebr. Gräfath, Solinnen-Widdert (Gräwiso logo)
H&PK (Initials in Triangle)
Heinrich Böker, Solingen-Remscheid
HK (Heinrich Krieghoff)
Hoppe & Homann, Hufeisenfabrik, Minden
J. A. Henckels, Zwillingswerk, Solingen
J. Dirlam & Söhne, Solingen
JHWE
Johann Leupold, Bayreuth
Klittermann & Moog GmbH, Solingen-Haan
Küpper & Sohnius, Fleischwerkzeug, Solingen-Remscheid
L&WH
Lauterjung & Co., Solingen (Tiger)
Lauterjung & Sohn, Solingen (Pumawerk)
Ludwig Zeitler, Wein, Osterreich
Max Weyersberg, Solingen
P. D. Lüneschloss, Solingen
Paul Seilheimer, Solingen
Paul Weyersberg, Solingen
Peter Lungstrass, Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen-Ohligs
Richard Abr. Herder, Solingen
Richard Klaas, Solingen-Ohligs
Robert Müller, Solingen (Crown logo)
Rudolph Büchel, Solingen-Merscheid
Weyersburg, Kirschbaum & Cie. Solingen

Updated List of Distributors for Feuerwehr Bayonets:

Albert Löscher, Hamm
Albert Ziegler, Giangen Brenz (FW only)
Aug. Lüneberg, Kiel
C. A. Staehle, Stuttgart
Carl Busse, Mainz (FW only)
Carl Henkel, Bielefeld (FW only)
E. Honer, Weinheim
Fr. Mühlenfeld, Barmen* (Speculation only)
Fritz Massong, Saarbrücken (FW only)
Georg Rieder, München
Gustav Genschow, Berlin (Geco)
Hans Grünwald, Magdeburg
Hans Krämer, Nürnberg(found on FW bayonet)
Hans Römer, München* (Speculation only)
Hermann Schellhorn, Offenback/Main (FW only)
Horst Wolff, GmbH, Leipzig (FW only)
Johann Kirch, Magdeburg
JG Merz
K. Negele, Tübingen
Linnenbrugger & Ellermann, Bielefeld (FW only)
Peter Müller, Gummersbach
Peter Wolter Söhne, Eschweiler (FW only)
Robert Schatz, Breslau
William Günther, Dresden* (Speculation only)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TKissinger,

Thanks Terry,
I've been missing that list. I guess I better copy it before it gets lost again. Hopefully when Billy has time he'll be able to start his thread again. I know it's been sorely missed by some of our collectors here. Thanks for re-posting it.
Steve.

Terry,

Only one correction, Aug. Luneberg, Kiel is, IMO a legitimate Feuerwehr distributor. I acquired a completely legitimate full rig from England a year or two ago. Gunther & Muhlenberg are still speculative. A beautiful, untouched piece that had that classic Eickhorn pommel & crossguard. Just checked for pictures but sadly, I don't have any at the moment.

Steve,

I'll make sure that one is on my list when I get a chance to start the FW thread again. I would have done so already but for time constraints

Here's one I do have a picture of though. We've seen a couple of Gottfried Weyersberg Söhne bayonets & Heer daggers over the last year but I've never seen the mark on a Feuerwehr bayonet until now.

Here's a nice one you dont see every day on a S98/05. I was wondering how rare is this maker mark? It's only the second one I have seen.

Dow

My list is for TR dress bayonets unless stated other wise. I'm not familiar with a lot of the earlier TMs.

Fisher does show this in his TM book but doesn't state the rarety of it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TKissinger,

Forgive me I know this is not a dress bayonet. But I have never seen a maker mark like this. Has anyone else seen this maker mark? I think it's cool with the two Iron Cross's.

Dow,

I agree with you, a very cool logo with those iron crosses. Fisher's lists 3 Röttgens, Albert, Ernst & Richard. There's no logo or items of production listed for Albert although Ernst is alleged to have produced SA daggers. What is your mark on?

Here's one I don't think I've posted before, a rarity for me because it's not a Feuerwehr piece.

I had an Ernst Rottgens SA a couple of years ago but the fact it wasnt in my edition of Fischer didnt register with me at the time as to its rarity it was in superb condition out of the woodwork from a WWII nursing sister
So I sold it on and was happy with the profit at the timethe trade mark was a steam ship within an ovally presented ERNST ROTTGENS SOLINGEN if I remember correctly

Great thread.
Here's a trademark not included above. Only one I've ever seen (...but,then, there's probably alot I haven't seen ) . Referenced in Carter's. Luft bayo.

Roger,
Thanks for posting your Frisia - If it ever needs a new home??????

Billy,
Thanks for posting the Rich. Plümacher.