oferring on ebay i have got pictures from the seller, my opinion looks like new , fake or originall opinions are welcome regards zet

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I have seen several of these come on Ebay recently. All have the same peculiarity, the blade is different than what I am use to.

I have threeof these in my collection. I have an Eickorn, I have the domestic produced model, and I have the ultra rare aluminum miniature.

All three blades are engraved with the traditional Bulgarian "God and Country" or words to that affect.

I find it very odd that all these coming on ebay look like they have mint fittings and an incorrect blade.

In my opinion, someone has found some parts and is making daggers.

Jim

Zet, I see nothing that leads me to believe that it is a reproduction. I have two in my collection. One is a Horster with an engraved blade and the other is a standard NCO piece with a plain blade that appears to match this piece. A few months ago, I sold a Bulgarian Air Force Dagger on ebay that was nearly identical (including blade style) to the one you have shown us. You might have seen it as it sold for about $800. Now a high selling price doesn’t mean that it’s original. However, some of the highest bids came from people in Bulgaria so I find that rather interesting. I have seen many of these daggers and there are several variations of them. The differences for the most part are minor but variations do exist. Regarding condition, it’s something that I always take into consideration when determining originality. However, keep in mind that Royal Bulgarian militaria was confiscated by the Bulgarian police beginning around 1946 when a communist government was put it place. Many edge weapons when “confiscated” ended up in private collections rather than being destroyed. They’re referred to as “search” collections. They were hidden and only since the fall of communism, have these pieces started to become available. Also, information regarding Bulgarian edge weapons is still very limited. In any event, I would judge each piece on its merit and not just the condition. There’re are many perfect condition and original German WWII daggers out there so a perfect condition Bulgarian dagger would not by itself, signify a reproduction. Other than condition, is there anything else about this piece that makes you believe it might not be original?

Gary

Thanks for answers i havent compared this photos to the book but im considering to buy it . You are right about condition but my thinking generally about daggers compare to polish situation , most of artifacts were destroyed after the war during comunist period as nazi items or sold abroad. Here something called denazification was very strong before and find artifacts in good condition is rather rare occasion. Regards zet except all discussion about this dagger fake or originall i like it very much

I am not sure why the condition is the issue here. My opinion is based on the blade. My statement on the three I have is very clear. All three have the proper etchings on the blades. This is all I am saying, that and I would not buy this.

Many post war daggers have received validation because someone has put them in a book. The so called South African NCO's dagger (a proven fantasy dagger) appears in at least one of the new books and now people believe it is original.

I personally like to stay with the textbook pieces. That is not to say this is definitely not original, this is to say I would not purchase it. Especially not for $800.

Just my opinion.

Jim

For those who think condition is evrything, here is a blue panneled Bulgarian AF by Eickhorn that is totally original and excellent ++

Note the original delux hangers.

Here is the blade.

In Zets original post, his concern about the daggers originality was based on the daggers new looking condition and he was seeking opinions about that. Some information was offered regarding the “new “appearance. However, there was more concern expressed because the daggers blade was not engraved or believed not to be correct because it did not match examples from a collection. This is very good information to share but apparently based on one collection. However, I can find no reference material stating that an engraved blade is a requirement for this dagger to be original. If anyone has such information I would appreciate them sharing it with us on this forum. I would also suppose as with German daggers, an engraved blade does not guarantee originality as we have all seen many fake etched German army daggers.
I agree that reference books are a funny thing and aren’t necessary accurate. Sometimes people feel the information is as good as gold when it confirms what they have or always believed. On the other hand, when it doesn’t match, it quickly gets discounted as being bogus information. Either case could be correct.
As far as $800 dollars goes. I would not buy this piece (or the one I sold) for that amount of money either. However, my point was that more than one person from Bulgaria was willing to bid a large sum of money on an identical looking dagger to the one Zet showed us. I find that interesting as I would not have expected them to buy a fake piece for such a large sum money. Maybe it’s possible they know more (or less) about these daggers than we do so further study is required. In any event, I’ve attached some links to a couple of fake daggers from my collection.

Gary
www.ili.net/~msawnick/bul1.JPG
www.ili.net/~msawnick/bul2.JPG
www.ili.net/~msawnick/bul3.JPG
www.ili.net/~msawnick/bul4.JPG
www.ili.net/~msawnick/bul5.JPG
www.ili.net/~msawnick/bul6.JPG

Nice daggers Gary.

If you are referring to the second dagger as the NCO's dagger, Why does it have the officers crossguard on it?

You see, the Bulgarians (not necessarily the high bidders) have a book out published 2 years ago which is the first appearance of the so called NCO's dagger. This is the danger. Two years ago a collector publishes a photo, then they start to appear for sale. However, this book specifies the plain crossguard for the so called NCO's dagger. Neither yours or the one for sale have the so called NCO's crossguard. Why would that be Gary? If your dagger is legitimate, why does it have the wrong crossguard configuration. In any case, we see people bid on daggers all the time that we know are "not right" So, it does not surprise me that people bid this up.

So, you appear to want to be a bit flipant and sarcastic so lets clarify this for the members here.

If there was a NCO's dagger, then where have they been. Surely, anyone who has been in the military knows there are a lot more NCO's than officers, so why are the first ones of these we have seen only surfacing now. You see, it is not only one collection, it is all of these that I have seen have the blade etched. Oh yes, that's right, Perhaps the government had them and is only now releasing them. That is an old wives tail.

I live in Poland from 1994 to 2000. During that time period, daggers did come out of Bulgaria, Russia, and other East Block countries, but about 1996 that stopped. As to the huge inventories held by the governments, that has long been debunked as simply not true. Other than the items left in the museums, enterprising dealers managed to clear out any such stocks long ago. So I ask again Gary, where were all the NCO dagger prior to a couple of years ago and why are we not seeing about 10 times as many NCO dagger as Officer daggers.

Now, like the Austrian daggers, I have no doubt there were significant parts left over. And, it is interesting to me that at the same time we are starting to see wood handled Austrian daggers we are also seeing these NCO Bulgarian daggers that do not conformr to even the Bulgarians descriptions.

This is an old story on the German side of the house. Daggers come up that are a variation. They always seem to have the same story. They were just located and they are absolutely original. This is how we got the RLB and Hitler Youth Bayonets. and now we have the Bulgarian NCO Air Force Dagger.

And, like on the German Forums, the person who owns the questionable items throws up all the reasons it is original. my concern here is for the members.

My recommendation stays the same. There is no reason to buy a questionable dagger when, with patience, you can get the real deal.

PS Gary, was the one you sold the one with the hangers?

Jim

Yes, let us clarify this for the members. I did not think my response was “flippant” or at the very least, no more flippant then yours. If you are bothered because someone is not taking your opinion as the gospel, then so be it. I do value your opinion however they present themselves more like being facts. Unfortunately, you still have not provided any real facts to back them up. So please provide them and we will all feel much better. Oh yes, because you haven’t seen it before doesn’t make it a fact so I’m looking for something of value that can be substantiated.

Regarding the NCO piece, you can call it an officer’s, NCO’s or what have you. Maybe it should be called an officers with a plain blade because it has the silver engine. What difference does it make as neither one of us can prove it otherwise. It would be like saying that all German daggers with an engraved blade were officers and the plain bladed one were not or are possibly fakes? I highly doubt it? If so, then we have a whole lot of bad German daggers out there if that’s the rule were going to apply. I have seen at least 4 variations to the Air Force cross guard. Some have a silver radial engine and some don’t. I‘ve seen them with a more upswept wing and some that were rather straight across. Even the engraving pattern on the cross guards seem to vary. Jim answer this, why the differences, which ones are real, and how do you know. You see, I too am watching out for the members so saying that something is fake because we can’t explain it or have never seen it could be misleading. Also, as you have stated many times, books are often times wrong and I agree. However, when a Bulgarian book you referenced supposedly shows an NCO dagger without a silver engine, you use it to tell me that my dagger has the wrong cross guard. Jim, is the book wrong or right this time and why?

Regarding and I quote you, “Oh yes, that's right, perhaps the government had them and is only now releasing them. That is an old wives tail”. I hope your comment wasn’t based on what I said in a previous post because I never said that. My comment stated that many pieces were confiscated by the Police and instead of being destroyed, were held in private collections. In other words, not turned in but basically stolen. That’s a whole lot different then saying that the government stock piled them and now releasing them. Frankly, I don’t know for a fact that either scenario is true or false. Do you?

Regarding “If there was a NCO's dagger, then where have they been”? That question would apply to all Bulgarian daggers because you don’t see that many for sale even on ebay. So where have they been and why is so little information being published? My guess is not that many people outside of possibly Bulgaria, have that information. Also, until more recently, I don’t believe that Bulgaria was fortunate enough economically wise to have the internet to the same degree we do. That along with their changing economy might have something to do with it. I really don’t know. In any event, with so little known, that is why I’m being persistent that we need more information before factual conclusions can be given.

Yes, the dagger I sold did have hangers that were in fair to good condition. By the way, that dagger had a plain blade without a silver engine on the cross guard. Does that now make an NCO dagger a legitimate piece because it matches the book?

Gary

I do not discount your opinion Gary, we simply disagree. As to the proof, we have two books that very well document the Bulgarian Daggers. So, let us be clear. It is not just that the blade is not etched, it is the wrong shape. I have seen photos of Bulgarian AF daggers with a plain blade. The shape of the blade is the same double fullered blade as the etched ones. That is not the question here. This blade shape is wrong. The only authority for anything remotely like this is the Bulgarian book (which you now discount because it does not suit you)which specifies a similar blade on a so called "NCO" dagger and the author specified the brass rotor.

As far as the internet in Bulgaria. The Bulgarians have been selling on the internet for at least 6 years and many legitimate collections have been already sold. Up to now, all those from Bulgaria were proper. But, let
us not stray.

The brass rotored daggers are commonly (except for the Bulgarian) believed to be from the local production or they were all originally silvered. You see, I do not believe there is such a thing as an NCO's dagger. I firmly believe this was created by parts and is being sold by sometimes unknowing sellers to unknowing buyers. A lot of that goes on in the dagger hobby.

I remember the one you sold on ebay. I and I suspect most people, were interested in the hangers. So, saying a similar one sold on Ebay for $800 is misleading. Also, am I to understand that you not only had the complete set you sold but still have another dagger with hangers?

May I ask if you purchased both the "NCO" daggers from the same person and did they both have hangers? This is an important question, because if they are now reproducing the delux hangers, we need to explore that also.

Of course, the last pertinent question is did you purchase these from an Austrian?

You see, I think you have period grips being fitted with new parts as we are and have been seeing with the Royal Yugoslav Air Force Daggers.

In any case, these daggers are not consistant with the known and documented originals. That is what my books tell me. What books do you have to the contrary?

Jim

I see Ive made a big discusion here, except all of this point of view i think paying more than 300 usd for this dagger on ebay is a big lottery.I see many strange items on ebay in strange prices (look at price of one SA on ebay in edge weapon forum).Many thanks for yours opinions and help i will try to look at my bulgarian book of daggers maybe i will find something intersting bulgarian is very similar to russian language and i will try to understand or translate some.regards zet

Jim, to disagree is good thing as I think it helps to further the discussion and hopefully bring about valuable information. Your statement about the daggers not being “consistent” with what the books show is exactly right. Quite honestly, that statement was one that I was looking for from the beginning. However, I am curious as to what books we have that very well document Bulgarian daggers. The one from Bulgaria is nice but who can read it? The pictures are ok but limited in value without being able to read the text. By the way, I did not discount the Bulgarian book because it didn’t suit me. Actually, if you believe the book, it would support some of my opinions so I’m confused by your statement. The other book I’m assuming you’re talking about is “World of Dress Daggers” by Berger. A very nice book but I think even Mr. Berger would say that it fell well short of covering Bulgarian daggers in depth. As a matter of fact, he told me that in an e-mail when he asked me my opinion regarding his book. Also, any reference material I have uncovered seems to speak of wide variations in Bulgarian daggers. They will state that examples exist that can very substantially from those shown. I have 6 different Bulgarian Army daggers. As I compare the cross guard’s side by side, there appears to be 3 variations. I have in my collection (and seen on the internet) Bulgarian Labor Service daggers with and without fullered blades. Also, some have leather or cloth covered scabbards and some are painted gloss black. I can only assume that as in German daggers, manufacturer differences exist. Also, I think we need to keep in mind that unlike German daggers, Bulgarian daggers were manufactured in Germany and in Bulgaria. I think the possibility exists for wider variations due to that fact. It's just my opinion as I have no real documentation to back it up.

Regarding the dagger that I sold on ebay, I don’t think the $800 selling price was misleading. The hangers were in at best, good condition. Also, I never received any questions regarding them. All questions pertained to the actual dagger so I think that was what a majority of the people were interested in. By the way, I purchased those hangers off of ebay for $85 about a year ago so I doubt if they added much monetary value to the piece. They came from a US seller but I don’t remember who. However, I am very sure they were not reproductions so I don’t think you need to worry about reproduction hangers just yet! To answer your questions, that dagger was purchased out of England about 4 years ago. The other Air Force daggers I have did not come with hangers and I don’t have any for them. If someone told you that I did have hangers, they are incorrect. The two daggers I posted were purchased out of Bulgaria about 3 years ago. I have many other Bulgarian daggers but no other Air Force. Also, to the best of my knowledge, I haven’t purchased any items from Austria or an Austrian so I hope that answers your question.

I find your comment about period grips fitted with new parts very interesting and a great topic for future discussions. In the meantime, I’m sure that is possible but how do we go about proving it? Do we know if the original tooling exists to make some or all of the parts? If only we had some answers!

Jim, I have truly enjoyed our discussions. They might seem a little adversarial at times but I’m sure that’s not the intent. I think they have been very open, honest and if nothing else gets both of us thinking out of the box and open to new ideas. I hope we can continue to have them as I find the information very beneficial.


Gary

Gary,

I think your description of variations of Bulgarian daggers to be quite well stated.

As regards the hangers and the seller, quite good of you to disclose that. In this market, for a person that has the German manufactured pieces like you and I, but without the hangers, it would not be unusual for someone to bid $500 for the hangers to complete their set. especially the delux set. I am surprised you were able to pick them up that inexpensively. But, that being said. My valuation of the package was the hangers $300 and somewhere between $300 and $500 for the dagger. So, I can see the price. In my case it was not necessary as I have all I need.

One more question if you wwould. I am curiouse if the buyer stripped off the hangers and is now selling the dagger. Is there a chance this is the same dagger?

I appreciate Gary's attitude in this. It is true my manner is sometimes combatant, but if both parties keep theie heads (and I think we have) we get enough data down to help understand the positions.

I can not say for certain this is a parts dagger or if there is anything wrong with it at all. I think people should simply know it is a little irregular, but for the price!!!! After all, a signature Bulgarian Dagger runs anywhere
from $1,200 to $2,000. Here you have one that really looks good and you can get it for $500 maybe. No problem as long as your aware of the variance.

By the way everyone. Gary mentioned the Romanian Army blades prior to WWII. Absolutely no two alike we can find. But, a topic for another day.

Jim

Jim, thank you for the kind words, I appreciate it.

To answer your question about the dagger, there is no way the piece Zet posted is the same dagger that I sold. The dagger that I sold did not have a silver radial emblem on the cross guard. It was plain brass as shown in the Bulgarian book and referred to as being an NCO's dagger. Also, the dagger I sold went to Israel if that is of any help to you. If needed, I believe I still have some pictures of that dagger if you would like them. I'm only making an assumption but are the pictures of the dagger that Zet posted the same one that is now on ebay? He mentioned it was an ebay piece but there was no reference to an item number so I'm only making this assumption. Don't worry because I won't be bidding on that piece as I'm sure the reserve is very high. If it is the piece on ebay, I can absolutely guarantee this is not the same dagger that I sold.

Gary