Gentlemen,

I picked up what I believe to be a parade sword for General Officer rank. The sword itself is nothing special, except for the pommel and backstrap decoration.

Opinions are welcome.

George

View of the 3/4 decorated backstrap. According to Fuller & Gregory this can indicate either General Officers or Field Officers. This backstrap decoration is listed by them as a General Officer variant in conjunction with the Chrysanthemum pommel.

The emblem on the pommel looks like the one used for police. Maybe a police parade saber?

Hayabusa2,

Thanks for the reply.

This emblem is the problem. It is not the standard five pointed police emblem but it is similar. It is the eight pointed emblem that is generally described as a chrysanthemum (kiku) that is found on military belt buckles, early caps, and General Officer kyu-gunto swords. The five petal cherryblossom (sakura) is seen on the backstrap below the kiku emblem, as well as on the sides of the backstrap in the usual places.

This photo is of a high ranking Police Officer parade sword showing the police emblem on the pommel.

George

George, one of my weak areas are swords. I'd think police as my first guess.The numerous army swords I remember examining they didn't have this emblem, seemed to have more back strap decor & horn or tortise shell grips. I'm at a loss not having my referance books near by.

ORPO,

Interesting and so very very similar to the police emblem. Hopefully, we will hear other opinions.

Gary

Thanks for the responses guys. These little parade swords are confusing. They are all generally, and incorrectly, called "police swords" by dealers. That is not correct of course as most of them I see are military. True police swords have the police insignia on the pommel like the second sword shown.

These parade swords seem to follow the same backstrap designs as the kyu-gunto swords. That is, a plain backstrap and a cherry blossom on the pommel indicates an Army company grade officer. A 3/4 decorated backstrap with a plain pommel indicates an Army field grade officer. A fully decorated backstrap with a chrysanthemum indicates an Army General.

The police badge is unique and is that shown on the second sword. The crysanthemum is shown with both sharp and blunt rays and this is seemingly what is on the first sword. Certainly this badge is not the police badge or the cherry blossom or the paulownia imperialis (kiri) found on some swords.

The grip material is interesting as well as some authorities indicate that tortoise or rayskin (same) can indicate General officer rank. The first sword has what appears to be blackened real tortoise but it is difficult to tell. The second has rayskin grips.

So, this sword must be either a field grade officer or a General officer rank parade sword as near as I can determine. Which is it?

George

Gents,

I thought I would post a couple of images from Fuller & Gregory's "Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945." This may help stimulate discussion on the sword at hand.

This image illustrates the differences in the pommel insignia usually found on Japanese swords. The image and descriptions are taken from the book. i. Chrysanthemum (kiku) found on General Officer swords, ii. Paulownia imperalis (kiri) found on Flag Officer swords & diplomatic swords, iii. Police badge found on police swords, iv. Cherryblossom (sakura) found on most military swords.

Here is another image from page 17 of Fuller & Gregory. This plate shows the backstrap and pommel of kyu-gunto pattern swords that indicate rank structure. An image on page 18 shows a partially decorated backstrap, with a kiku pommel, that Fuller & Gregory indicate is, "An unusual partially-decorated general officers' Kyu-gunto backstrap with a chrysanthemum (kiku) motif."

This backstrap decoration is the same as the one on my Army parade sword. It is also the same as on my Police parade sword. So, is the Police sword also a General Officer rank or a Field Grade rank?

George

George-
The field of Japanese military swords is certainly an area that far more documented research is required. Havig seriously collected and chased the Japanese sword for nearly a qurter of a century, I aquired many of this form of saber along with the Nihont I sought. The majority had similar engraving to that found on your sword. I have always considred the engraving to be an option of purchase and not an indication of rank. If a rank indicator, the majority found should have the company grade officer engraving. This has never been my experience. My thoughts for what they are worth.
Bob

Bob,

Thank you for your thoughts. I am not entirely convinced that Fuller & Gregory are correct in what they say either. That is why I ask for opinions on this parade sword.

These two swords have the same cast backstrap decoration but have different pommel devices. IMO, the first one is military and the second one is police. It seems clear that is what the pommel devices indicate. One will see the first chrysanthemum style device on early Army kepis, belts, etc and the second police badge on Police swords, caps, and rank insignia. The Japanese Police still use this particular emblem exclusively today.

But, the real question is if the backstrap decoration indicates rank and if so, what rank is indicated.

George

Orpo

If you examine the Fuller-Gregory reference, page 66, plates 87 & 88, you will see a saber virtually identical to yours at top;
identified as "army general officers' parade saber with a horn grip".

I personally have no contrary opinion as I don't know any source better than Fuller-Gregory to defer to on this type of sword.

Hope this helps.

Roger,

Thanks for your response. I guess the Fuller & Gregory reference is sort of what we are left with at the end of the day. I just wish they would have included some footnotes that included references to some of their statements and conclusions.

George

Hi George ...See what you started ? now because of you posting yours , I ended up with one .
I had a call 2 days ago from a Local who was installing a Furnace in an old Lady's House ...he found this Sword behind the Furnace. He offered to buy it but , she gave it to him for free with a few other things.
I also have the Fuller book but can't lock this in. It says the Black portapee is for NCO's ..but the design is almost like yours . Different chrysanthemum on the top of the backstrap ...and without the heavy /ornate designs going the full length down the Backstrap.

Top --

Haven't cleaned it yet but ..I don't think there's much I can do about that Chrome

Mine only has one ring on the Scabbard ..the Fuller Book shows 2 ring examples ...unless I missed something ?

Mike,

Sorry about that. I hate starting something I can't finish.

Seriously, a very nice sword. It is neat that you could pick it up like that. Yours has a habaki on the blade ricasso, where mine does not. It looks like your blade is dismountable by unscrewing the sakura on the pommel as well. I also like the fuller that you can see on a few of these sword blades. I suspect your blade is a bit better than mine.

I normally see these swords with one suspension ring on the scabbard. I think the earlier ones had two for wear with the dress belt and I have seen them as well. I also think the black cloth knot is generally correct for this type of sword. It seems it was also worn on the early kyu-gunto since it did not have to indicate rank like the later colored knots did. It would made sense if the rank was indicated by the decoration on the sword, IMHO. NCOs generally wore the brown leather knot.

George

Thanks George ..I passed on one of these years ago because , someone had been playing with it ..the Sakura had been unscrewed too many times and the whole thing was loose.
So this one was worth "waiting for"

FULLER AND GREGORY HAVE NEVER REVEALED THE SOURCE OF THIER POSITION THAT FULLY ENGRAVED BACKSTRAPS ARE FOR GENERAL OFFICER RANKS, HALF ENGRAVED FOR FIELD GRADE AND BASIC ENGRAVED FOR COMPANY GRADE. I DOUBT THIS THEORY BASED ON THE NUMBER OF FULLY ENGRAVED BACKSTRAP SWORDS I HAVE OWNED OVER THE YEARS. SECONDLY, A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO I ENCOUNTERED A KYU GUNTO MOUNTING WITH POLICE STAR AND A SPECIAL ORDER BLADE MADE FOR THE POLICE COMMANDER IN KOREA. THE BACKSTRAP ON THIS SWORD WAS HALF ENGRAVED. IF THE FULLY ENGRAVED BACKSTRAP SWORDS ARE EXCLUSIVE TO GENERAL OFFICERS, I HAVE BEEN EITHER VERY LUCKY OVER THE YEARS OR THE THEORY IS INCORRECT.

klaushund,

I do understand your position given your experience with swords of this type.

I wish Fuller and Gregory had cited their sources for this position too. I take it that they believed this is true with the earlier Russo-Japanese War Army Kyu-Gunto pattern swords and therefore must also be true with the Army parade sword. But, as you say they do not footnote (or otherwise state) any official source for this statement.

I can actually see a sword for the police commander in Korea only having a half engraved backstrap due to the police rank structure. Generally speaking, police "officer" ranks were Sub-Inspector, Inspector, Superintendent, and Commissioner with the Sub-Inspector being more of a Warrant Officer rank. These are the policemen who wore the long parade sword under discussion. Short police swords were worn by Constables and Sergeants. So, this may, or may not, be exactly the same with Army swords of this type who have ranks from Lieutenant through several grades of General Officers.

George

George, did you see the swords shown on page 66 in plates 87 and 88? The one shown second from left, or item ii looks almost identical to yours. Looks like the only difference is that the one shown has a habiki. The emblem also looks the same as one of the belt buckles shown on page 90 plate 47.

Walt,

Yes, thanks I did see those photos. I just returned from the 65th Pearl Harbor Survivor's Convention in Hawaii with my father-in-law so I just now saw your response. My father-in-law was on duty in Pearl Harbor on the Heavy Cruiser New Orleans during the attack on 7 December 1941. He was able to meet a Japanese Torpedo Bomber pilot who was in the attack and shake his hand. He told him that he was shooting at the Torpedo planes as they went close by his position on the Communications Bridge and he may well have shot at him on that day. It was quite a moving experience for both of these former foes.

George