The small knife that we have come to know as the DJ/BDM knife, I believe is the same type of knife that was used as a commemorative for the Nurnburg and Olympic events with the addition of the appropriate etchings. Most of the information I have read about the DJ/BDM knife struggles to find a real purpose for their existence.

Could it be that these knives were made specifically for use at the commemorative events suggested above, and that all the 'plain' knives we see today, that were found in crates towards the end, or, at the end of the war, are the leftovers that became redundant and no longer required, because the war had started?

Regards

Russell

Ok, plenty of views but no comments yet.

I guess the above question, pre-supposes that one believes in the commemorative knives in the first place, or am I wrong in saying they are the same type of knife as the so-called DJ/BDM knife?

Perhaps these questions have been posed here before; if so, can someone please point me to the thread?

Or is it just not an interesting subject?

Regards

Russell

Russell, You’ve selected an excellent topic well worthy of discussion. If your observation is that all of the small aluminum hilted knives seem to share common characteristics I think that is pretty much a given. The stag gripped “Olympic” versions of these knives are demonstrably fakes.

Very unfortunately the most comprehensive threads (IMO) regarding them seem to have been lost. Posted below are the only remaining threads that I could find still intact. FP

HJ-DJ Knives

Presentation Thread

Fred, thanks very much for your reply and also the links to the other discussions.

I'm trying to understand the purpose of these so-called DJ/BDM knives with the Bakelite grip. To my limited knowledge, there is nothing at all that shows these knives to be linked to the DJ or the BDM in the first place. Perhaps this theory came about because the knives are physically smaller than the HJ, and generally, so are the members of these organisations, but that's all.

There are ample period photos of the DJ wearing the standard HJ knife, but none that that show the smaller knife being worn by them or the BDM. Also, as you have said in the earlier thread, no period documentation has surfaced, including manufacturer catalogues, which detail the existence of the smaller knife. And, the HJ knife is known as the “Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk” from period sources. So why have another one?

My thoughts are that this knife was not intended to be worn by any organization. I think that it may have been manufactured purely for use as a commemorative knife for the events such as the Party Rallies, as a souvenir if you like. If this were the case, then large numbers of the basic knife would have been made, and then etched accordingly as each event came up. When the war started, the stockpile of un-etched knives would no longer have a purpose, and so stay packed up, for use when the war finished. It could also explain the lack of an RZM mark, as the knife was not any part of an official ‘uniform’ as such. It could also explain its aluminium construction, not requiring the strength for physical daily use, as required by the HJ knife.
I’ve read that these knives were found by the crate towards the end of the war, which could explain why so many are seen in good condition.

I’ve not had the opportunity to handle one of the commemorative knives, or in fact, the ‘plain’ version either. But I’ve always been puzzled by the description the plain version has been given and offer the above for comment. I hope someone who has one or some of these commemorative and plain knives will post some pics.

I’ve added a pic of some DJ members receiving their HJ knives and cross-strap. Apologies for the clarity – it’s a paused image taken from a video.

Regards

Russell

Ruski,
I had the opportunity to purchase a Nurnburg knife two days ago from a very knowledgeable dealer here in the UK,at the War and Peace Fair.I handled it and had a good look at it,it was very light and flimsy,the only word I can think of at the moment.The difference to the HJ was like chalk and cheese.IMO this knife was not intended to be used as a piece of hardware,but as you have already aluded to,as a souvenier of the Rally.I do not think,again,IMO,that these were "issued".However,if they were not,then were they purchased or handed out,if they were given away,then why the amount found in crates,surely there were enough people at the Rally to be able to give away as many as you could churn out.Perhaps because of the fact that they were not an issue knife,then we have a slow starting thread.All that said,it was a nice little knife,the asking price was £350.I passed on it in favour of a nice SA that I will post soon.
Ivan.

That type of knife, as well as the what we know as the "HJ Knife" have been produced in Europe before and after the Nazis. The "HJ Knife" was made with various emblems and used by Boy Scouts of the day. As late as 1980, you could buy them in Germany. Probably still today ? It is possble that the smaller ones were produced as generic smaller versions of the "HJ Knife" with being intended for use by any group in particular.

I will say that I have never seen a period picture of a young girl, BDM or otherwise, wearing one.

Dave

This theory of commemorative use for unspecified events does not explain those with a pinned HJ emblem to the scabbard. These have been accepted as period albeit unattributed for many, many years by very advanced collectors including Tom Wittmann. TW had a couple on his site a little while back. in their own category too. Doesn`t have any right now though. Not cheap items either!

Hey gents, thanks for the comments! I'm happy that perhaps we have a subject here that can be discussed, with a wide range of opinions and factual knowledge. I'm by no means an expert and I'm not disputing anything said or accepted by dealers or collectors with far more experience than me - I'm just interested in reading collectors/dealers thoughts on these knives, and why they seem to be accepted now as the "DJ/BDM knife" without much to back it up. Maybe the real reason is that they are more 'collectable' with this title.

Landser, I didn't bring the knives with the HJ diamond added into the topic, because I think they may be another whole subject themselves! I think it likely that many of the smaller knives had the diamond added during the period, but also believe that many could well be post war enhanced. There are many TR items around imo with enhancements that are period, like daggers, holsters etc, that are not 'official'.

It seems to be widely accepted that the smaller knives with the Nurnburg Party Rally blade enhancements are period and legitimate, and there were a lot of the same type of knives left over at wars end without these enhancements - I guess I'm just putting this together as a possible theory for their existence.

Perhaps these knives were produced even earlier, as Dave said occurred with the HJ knife, and maybe they were used pre the TR period in various youth organisations etc. I hope someone can expand on this. That could well be so, but whatever the reason, they were found to be suitable to carry the Rally commemorative enhancements.

Thanks gents, I really appreciate the discussion! Let's see some more posts.

Regards

Russell

In previous threads it has been noted that there is no known recorded evidence of these knives in the period that would settle this issue either way. As a latecomer to this hobby I like many others have taken direction from those with an advanced knowledge & experience. The knife is mentioned in very early publications & is seemingly acknowledged by some very advanced collectors & dealers from way back to within but a few years of the period. Perhaps some of these knives were obtained by them from veterans which may account for this recognition. Perhaps if one of our senior members has had the good fortune to directly acquire one they will contribute to this thread.

Unfortunately given the voluminous photographic archives not everything is recorded to simplify our quest for knowledge. For example; I have a superb banner that is quite definately a period banner, but as yet no photograph exists to conclusively prove it. Should one ever appear then the value would no doubt multipy considerably. This however is unlikely as one does not normally take photographs in a chapel of rest.

The DJ example that I have has an emblem identical to that of the HJ knife but rather than being flat the surface of the emblem is convex & follows the contour of the scabbard. The scabbard does not appear to have been tampered with post manufacture & so I can only assume it was assembled that way. There are those- & I have no doubt in some quantity over the years- that have been interfered with; most notably with an HJ badge being affixed by some method. I believe that like the HJ knife emblem they should "wiggle" if deemed to be correct. It is certainly interesting to ressurect this topic & let us hope that like so many others it will not vanish into the ether at the divine will of groupee.

While it’s really two topics, I’ll try to address them separately with some overlap. It’s very common to use books to provide a basic framework for collecting in specific areas, and I have a number a number of books myself and I’m not new to collecting. And to trust the expertise of the writers. I mean no disrespect to the early writers, but I think some were better informed than others. But the fact of the matter is that none of them had a guide book covering all aspects of collecting.

And while oftentimes they presented information based on period documentation. It is also true that sometimes they made guesses where they lacked specific knowledge. And sometimes they guessed right. And sometimes they guessed wrong. And sometimes they got fooled. For example on page 307 of Tom Johnson’s Vol. II he has a specimen of a bayonet. The bayonet would not last a nanosecond in today’s more sophisticated collecting world. He gave it a whole page. And some mistakes in books got picked up by others or were repeated, - and were repeated often enough that they later came to be accepted as “facts”. “Facts” that have no basis in the physical world.

Speaking first to the “plain jane” small hiking knives (w/o emblems) there is to the best of my knowledge ZERO documentation of any kind. Not just a lack of pictures. There are not in any period catalogs or period references - or by now I think an example of same would have been posted in the (at least) two years the knives have been discussed. If Tom Wittmann or anyone else for that matter labels them “DJ” or “BDM” or whatever as a means of labeling them that is OK. As long as it’s understood that it is just labeling - unless one of them has some period documentation hidden away somewhere. Without that there is nothing to back up statements claiming that an item is this or that. And if I am wrong. And period documentation of any kind actually does exist. NOW would be the time to present it.

For the emblem added examples I won’t go into the various arguments presented in times past. But would instead focus for the moment on where most seem to agree as regards those examples:

Emblems are seen glued or pinned using usually either the knife or hat type emblems. However some emblems are not RZM marked. And we know that the “conventional” emblems are commonly reproduced intact with fake RZM markings and/or in different colors.

For all the pinned type knife scabbards they have evidence of mouthpieces being removed and rivets reworked/replaced.

And all have aluminum hilts (indicating only a finite possible prewar period of manufacture). And no RZM markings. Although I recently saw a reverse/negative type “RZM” marking added to a scabbard in the manner of a Waffenamt. It was next to one of the holes of a twin hole variant breaking up the scabbard paint where it was post manufacture applied. An interesting attempt to try prove the item was genuine - versus the usually unmarked scabbards.

As for condition: Some show poor storage. But there is no evidence of them ever being used either for the knives with or without emblems. This includes those purchased from vets. But it’s not known if the emblem added examples from vets were preexisting manufacture Or were altered or made as souvenirs for GI’s located or stationed in Germany after hostilities ceased.

So at the end of the day we have: No documentation of any kind. No visible RZM markings, aluminum hilts, and never used. How does that prove a connection to the “DJ”, “BDM” or any Third Reich organization? Because they exist? FP

One thing came to mind after reading the above.

I have seen the HJ knives in near mint condition but I have also seen many that have been sharpened quite often. Just about what you would expect from the only TR knife that was actually used, and used by scouts.

I do not ever remember seen any variety of the smaller knives showing signs of use. I have seen them rusted and deteriorated, but not sharpened. Has anyone else.

Dave

I believe I have seen a couple that had been sharpened. I think it was in the for sales forum about a year ago. Possibly daggeraddict that had 3 or 4 for sale. I can`t remember now if any of them were badged. They were all pretty rough & looked to have been well used. i suppose if they were souvenir knives that might account for them not being used much. I remember when I was a boy scout they were always looking for ways to raise funds. We had "bob a job" week (A bob being slang for a shilling in the old currency). We would go house to house & do small chores. There were jumble sales & the usual raffles etc. I wonder if the HJ might have sold these knives to raise funds? Who knows? Just a thought.

I think many were made during the period, for sale to the masses of the times.

John

Plusses and minuses. 1935 is within the time frame that an aluminum hilted knife could be made before it became a material conserved for military production.

Over the years I’ve had hard drive/computer crashes which did not help things and lost a lot of data. And I was not really archiving images for the ‘variations on a theme’ for the small knives as a group. I’m now collecting information to have a database on what is currently in circulation. For the “Nürnberg Party Day 1935” etched knives I have the following variants: The “DJ” knife with black bakelite grips and the “HJ” emblem on the scabbard. And a well used standard HJ knife by Herm. Konejung A.G. with a fresher looking “Nürnberg Party Day 1935” etched onto the obverse.

To which I am now adding what looks like an untouched example of a stag gripped “DJ” knife with the “Nürnberg Party Day 1935” inscription. It could very easily be just the digital imaging. But this example does not seem to be as well done (etched and painted) as some I have seen (?).

As for “door to door” or general sales to the public the Hitler Jugend was not the Boy Scouts. It was a paramilitary organization whose real purpose was to prepare young men and boys for military service. During the war some HJ members acted in military, paramilitary, and other capacities. Some even earned the Iron Cross and War Merit Cross.

And the HJ emblem itself was not public property - it was NSDAP property. And was a part of the uniform. And for all HJ service uniforms (including accessories like knives) the RZM got a 5% rebate (and is why RZM markings are an important factor). FP

Strike 'untouched' - and make that "an unused example of a stag gripped “DJ” knife". FP

I believe that the Nurnberg pieces are definately original.
Here are my examples. The stag gripped piece is a rare documented variation by Puma which has been discussed IN DEPTH here on GDC and IS a period piece. It is pictured in a reference book and has been inspected by Whitty, who loved it.
The rare pennant, the matching badge and the Puma "hunting" style knife were purchased directly from a german family in Munich by a friend of mine decades ago.
The etch on the Puma is larger, deeper and more detailed than the more common DJ etch. The scabbard is Stamped with the Puma logo and numbered with a DRGM number allong the steel edge. The knife no longer fits completely into the all leather scabbard as it has shrunk slightly over the years.
Enjoy:

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To John and Johnny, thanks for putting up some pics of your commemorative knives! Beautiful looking pieces! And great looking pennants to go with them as well. I hope we will see some more examples and some close-up pics. Does anyone have the set, presumably from 33-38?

Regards

Russell

Gents, I just found this thread on the subject, which may help generate some more or additional thoughts.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/427101702/m/2450024443

Regards

Russell