I received in the mail today an M33 SS Dagger Full Rohm by Pack. The blade is mint and is not good!!! I will try to post photos of this piece, but you need to see the blade in person in order to understand how they look. I will try to bring it to the SOS for show and tell at Craig's party.
The polish is not quite right and the motto and inscription looks a little light, but it is very good. It may be an old Reddick blade in that the color is not exactly right and the polishing is very wavey as you look down the blade from the tip, but only experience in seeing these could make you aware it is bad.
It is scary however.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: It was in good Pack fittings.

Here is the Pack Blade:

That certainly looks very good & I am sure would be good enough to fool all but the very experienced & knowledgeable specialist. Most especially without the opportunity for a hands on inspection. I see precisely what you mean about the etching looking light.

Most disconcerting Mr. Weinand. Many thanks for bringing this to attention & may I say that I hope very much that you have not suffered any pesonal loss in it`s acquisition. There are many like myself that are quite new to this hobby that could very easily fall foul of such an item & perhaps my saving grace would be my inability to afford such a piece were it genuine & an immediate suspicion of a "bargain"

Damned, this is the nicest reproduction that I've ever seen.
Indeed, many collectors would've been fooled by this blade.....including "moi" !
Looking forward to see that blade at Craig's party...........hopefully, before drinking too many beers.

After careful examination, could it be that the one sure way to know these is that the & is too tall and the same size as the other E. P. S. letters? I have checked my other Packs and all have a shorter & in the lettering. Can anyone verify this?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hi Ron,heres an earlier post on the same subject,regards Stan
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/477091573/m/9183094783

http://www.stan-the-man.tk

Ron..I saw and held one exactly like that at a show in Denver. My concern was the maker mark and the location of the hammer head and the pointed shape of the hammer head. Would these be characteristics of the early Rohm maker marks? starky

The additional line under the knee and the open hammer head are dead giveaways.

Here is the maker-mark on my E.Pack SS for reference.

John

John, you will notice that the & is shorter than the other letters.

The hammer is also very different.

Ron, Thank You for posting the information and images!!! At a show recently I saw another Pack SS that looked too good to be true in a set of mounts that seemed a little off for the blade. I passed, but having not seen it before wondered what was going on. Now I know. FP

The & on my 3 is smaller and the hammer head is totally etched, not outlined.

If you look on Page 449 in Third Reich Daggers by Bowman I think you'll see the same spurious logo on a Rohm blade.
Jim

The sad thing about the Pack is that it is the hardest piece to tell reproduction from original. In fact, when I look at an SA Rohm by Pack, I don't even look at the inscription, but at something totally unrelated to the etch itself. I am not sure the same characteristic of the dagger extends to SS daggers, but I would love to find out. I will say, however, that the EP&S Logo can vary quite a bit on original pieces, as can the placement with respect to the Rohm signature. For some reason, only EP&S shows variation in this respect. However, with regard to this piece, Ron, I do agree . . . it is a very scary piece to the untrained eye.

Maker

Hello everyone,
I have some questions. I have what I believe is a full Rohm Dagger. I don't know a lot about it's history and how it was aquired by my Step Grandfather. I aquired it 24 years ago after his death. I am now 50. It has not been cleaned. By going to some of the websites I have learned a bit. Enough to scare myself. As I have seen these sold for as much as $18,000.00. I was offered a large sum for it a few years later by a collector and then more about five to six years ago by another collector. I have moved from Tucson so I am no longer in touch with these gentlemen. Last week I showed it to someone and they told me I should sell it to someone who would display it, as it has been sitting in a drawer covered in clothes. It is possible that my step grandfather who’s name was Bonner may have had it presented to him. When I started a search I found that it had gained value of about 70%.

It is a complete blade. Not retipped , sharpened and shortened. It has dark mottoes. It is a maker marked blade the most desirable, (not a transitional blade having both maker marks and RZM marks are the second most desirable.) The inscription is dark and to my knowledge has never been buffed or cleaned. There are some in/out fine lines on the blade. Crossguards are solid nickel the most desirable. Typically stamped with a "gau" mark which is Ns which is Neiderschsen. This mark denoted the original issue location. The pommel nut doesn’t show any scratches. It is a pristine nut and looks like it has never been turned which is rarity today and desirable. The material remains consistent with the rest of the fittings. The handle is made from hardwood. It is a early dagger and has softer lines. (Not like that of the RZM types) indicating more time and care had been taken in finishing. The scabbard is anodized not painted. The earliest examples are anodized. Again these early scabbards are the most desired by collectors. It has one spot appears to be due from wear.There are no dents and splits in the ball and it is perfect. All nickel screws are in place. The handle and crossguard fit is perfect with some normal shrinkage to the wood from time. No cracks in the wood.The inlays have never been removed. Roundels is exactly 9mm in diameter.. As I said this dagger has never been cleaned to my knowledge. SA button tarnished. Crossguard to blade is a close to perfect fit. (Unlike RZM daggers that will often display less than perfect fits.)Scabbard to crossguard fit is perfect. The dagger hanging from the scabbard ring is at the correct angle. All wear is consistent. This dagger is of the highest quality. The logo is the typical hammering Siegfried variety which has the firm's initials above, "EP&S" and below is the producing town, "Solingen"

Attached are some photos

Thanks in advance for any advise and your thoughts,

Don

Donschaos@aol.com

I cannot get anymore photos to upload through this site. It says disk full??

Don,

A SA Full Röhm is not worth 18000 $, that amound is even high for an SS full Röhm.
Your dagger would be around 4 to 5000 $ if at least in excellent condition.

Best greetings,

Herman

Regarding the Rohm dedication on the E.P.& S., I was offered one just like this one but on a Rich. Herder marked blade. That one was even harder to tell than Ron's example. The logo was almost perfect. Not like this E.P.& S. Which one can tell clearly by the hammer and the &.
However that example had the exact same "style" of fake Ernst Rohm signiture. The E in Ernst is
thinner than Known examples, besides being slightly canted on the blade, compared to known examples. Also the T, in Ernst. Notice the narrower thickness in the line going up to make the T. If you compare next to genuine examples, you can tell that the Ernst Rohm name is wrong.
Look for line thickness first. Followed by each
letter in Ernst Rohm. It is close, but not close enough to a genuine example.
If someone can put a side by side photo of Rons, to a genuine here, of the name only, you
will see what I mean. I don't have tech skills
to do it.
This is the latest fake Rohm's coming out of eastern block. Some of them with numbered crossguards. I'll tell you, as Ron can, they are very good fakes. But so far, Pat is right.
They are not perfect.
But I almost blew 3K. No, sweat to the seller, he sold it the next day to another collector. -wagner-

So in the MM pics....which is the fake and which is the good one?


"when I look at an SA Rohm by Pack, I don't even look at the inscription, but at something totally unrelated to the etch itself"

What is it you look at Craig?

nats, your posting of the old G.P.& S. thread link is in error. -wagner-

Hi wagner,the link was OK a few weeks ago,the phanton thread deleter must be at work again,nats

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

Hi nats, Who would delete that thread? There was excellent info on real/repro G.P.& S. maker mark comparisons. We need to get that back. -wagner-