You may have been following this debate in Germany. After much discussion and petitions the Iron Cross continues to receive no consideration as an award of bravery for German soldiers. Jewish groups and leftists feel the award had been effectively forever tainted by Nazi Germany even though the award goes back to 1813. One group even stated the cross shape may be offensive to members of the Islam faith. The most recognized award, probably in the world and it is banned.

As long as there is a govt in power that sees votes in continual and perpetual appeasement of the leftists,Marxists and Islamists, you will never see this award reinstated..

There is not one govt since the reformation of the Bundeswehr in 1956 that has supported the military.They do 'just enough' and pay lip service to them, but most of the left of centre govts in the past 50 years have treated them as pariahs.

To them, the iron cross is a continued reminder of military imperialism, and the left will never let such a symbol ever again adorn a modern day German combat uniform.

I dare say that one day the German people will realize the value of such an historic symbol when they have to eventually fight the Islamists in their own backyard..

Vic..do you have any links to articles of interest on this topic?

Political correctness at its worse.

The Iron Cross offensive to the members of the islamic faith?!!!

That is no sense Well maybe today with all that things between faiths, but during WWI there were turkis (Sorry I don know if the spelling is correct, in Spanish it is TURCOS, people from TURQUIA), who wore iron crosses so praudly, without a problem. That did not say that they were Chistians, it said that they were awarded by a goberment that shaped its award in that particular form (by the way in fact the IRON CROSS was born as a REAL Chritian symbol in 1190 with the Teutonic Order, the Teutonic Knights). Well, hehehe, perhaps they can make the IRON CRECENT, just as they did with the RED CROSS and the RED CRECENT and RED STAR OF DAVID. No, I think there is not need for a change, it must remind as such: THE IRON CROSS/ If I were awarded with a Crecent or a Star of David, FINE. No problem, I will wear them praudly/ That will not take anything from my Christian faith.

Now, the question is: How would I fell if I were a Jew and wearing an award that Hitler had in his chest?

Yes, pity, I think that the nazis tainted the symbol just as they did to the Swastika. To make things worse, today a lot of people in those heavy rock metal use the Iron Cross as a symbol and grups related to neo nazis as well.

I think the German goverment must do something to resurect this symbol. I can see it on the German Air Force and the Geman tanks today, I saw it in the grave stones from all the German war casualities/ So, it must be saved/

YES to the Iron Cross, NO to Nazis

Regards

Yes, I was disappointed too that the time has not yet come to bring back the Iron Cross as a military decoration for valor. But this has nothing to do with "leftists, liberals, Marxists" or any of the other monikers which simplistic American right-wing morons apply to things they don't understand. The Iron Cross is painted on every West German air force aircraft in the world and has been since its inception.

Germany is not the United States, and its citizens are not Americans. American political labels do not apply. This is a cultural issue. It is about deep-seated German national angst over the events of WWII and the systematic murder of six million people, which the medal, not the shape, still symbolizes in the current national ethos and narrative. Perhaps in 20-30 years, when the WWII generation has died off, it might be possible to resurrect the Iron Cross as a military decoration, but not today. Societies do not change that quickly.

If you look at where German national defense debates were just 15 years ago, and where Germany is today, the change is extraordinary. Just 15 years ago, when I was active in German defense debates, it was unimaginable that a German soldier would ever again set foot outside of Germany. Today they have deployed around the world and are engaged in Afghanistan and elsewhere. As the saying goes, "it's a fish out of water; don't be too disappointed that he can't ride a bicycle."

As for "fighting Islamists in their own backyard," that will never happen. Germany buys all its oil from Russia.

Interestingly enough, the US Army awards Iron Crosses. They are for marksmanship, with each grade - Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert having an Iron Cross built into the badge.

Dave
(Iron Cross holder Expert Rifleman Circa 1964)

quote:

Originally posted by Edgar Lauer:
The Iron Cross offensive to the members of the islamic faith?!!!

The Iron Cross is NOT offensive to the muslim population, i should know cause im a moslem myself and collect/display EKs in my living room. It is a award decoration for bravery and not religious even though it has a cross for design. By the way, the crescent is not a symbol of islam, islam does not have any symbol (tell those guys who said it has, to read the Quran carefully)

quote:

I think the German goverment must do something to resurect this symbol. I can see it on the German Air Force and the Geman tanks today, I saw it in the grave stones from all the German war casualities

Shown below are the graves of The German U-Boat men that died in Indonesia during WW2.The person who look after them is an old moslem woman

What was the fine from America to the Germans?
The war was there for America, thats why bombs where gonna loaded up over Germany. Then after this? The Nuernberger trial was a show place then support was given and food. The real penalty was smarter, fear and detention for generations about their/the own history!

"..But this has nothing to do with "leftists, liberals, Marxists" or any of the other monikers which simplistic American right-wing morons apply to things they don't understand. The Iron Cross is painted on every West German air force aircraft in the world and has been since its inception."

Chris, i am afraid you didn't understand the point of my post.It matters not if the Luftwaffe or Bundeswehr have crosses on their vehicles.That was a matter that took nearly 15 years to finally work out, and it was not through the benevolence of the German Gov't to be sure..

The fact of the matter is this.As long as Germans perpetually re-elect gov'ts that are left of left wing, the conditions for debate cannot even take place, let alone come to a conclusion.I am not a red neck, i am a well educated Canadian who can see that most of the leftist gov'ts elected in the last 50 years pander to left wing special interest groups, and promote social policy that has led to the rise of Islam in Germany.If you have lived there for any length of time, you will know what i mean.

German govt's DO pander to the left and their causes..they also pander to marxists and hard core social radicals intent on the social re-engineering of Germany.Get rid of the appeasement mindset, and then you can move forward.

Not fighting Islamists in their own backyard? They will when their own internal demographics become unsustainable, and their population starts to creep into the 20-25% range of total population..

As far as the Germans go in Afghanistan, they are well equipped and trained and are there, that is the best that can be said for them (through no fault of their own..) mainly because of the severely restrictive caveats placed on their forces that preclude them from fighting.

Canada could sure use their help, but they have been loathe to even release an aircraft for recce, or operate on any level after dark, let alone fight in the south.So far, their role has been one of mentor and security troops

You are not wrong when you say that perhaps now is not the time for this award debate..but if not now, when? ..and by whom?

Surely not the same people who wish their hundreds of years of common German and Western heritage should be usurped and replaced by Sharia law?

Another post closed for modern politics.

Dave