Hi There :
I have run into another dagger that seams to have a washer of some kind between blade and crossguard or is this another photograficly created illusion . Up for Euro 1800.- .
Pic 1: ..corrected to 2800.- Euros ....
Douglas

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Douglas 5,

Pic 2

Pic 3

Hello Douglas ,
the price is 2800 EUR .The buffer can be personally option , but is this maker-mark correct ?

Argggggg, Are Rzms bringing this much money?.
Knife looks tight, but not minty, maker seems ok, but not a total expert, even if you discount the vertical your talking 3k+.

I am curious to see what the SS guys have to say on this.

Regards,

Kris

M7/5 Krebs,Carl Julius,Solingen

only one example found to date.

Fisher Quick Ref.2003

The washer should not be there and makes the dagger something that should be inspected very closely.

It is possible that someone put one on a real dagger, BUT a washer there on a normal SS dagger is a big anomality.

You don't see SS daggers with the straight M/7 XX code and no SS runes that often. This one is either the third or fourth M7/5 that I have seen.

Hope this helps,
Dave

It sure looks like a washer and not an illusion. I for one am really surprised to see this on a dagger for sale on Weitze's site!
Jim

I don’t know who put the washer there, but it may have been there for a while as I think that I see signs of corrosion in its vicinity from the acid in the leather. Methinks that the blade might be a ‘tad’ ugly underneath which may be why it was left in place?

I did aquire from a vet's estate an E. Pack Sa with a buffer pad, but that is the only one I have seen. From the patina under it it was definately on there since the end of the war. I sold it years ago so unfortunatley cant post a pic. It was much thinner than the pad on this dagger

I was quite surprized myself as I saw this one and looked at it very carefully . If it had been just on Ebay somewhere I would have not paid much attention to it exspecially after the last one I posted .
Yes it is 2800 Euros ... and for sale on Weitze's site ., he does not say anything about it being there in the description as if I was the only one seing it or it was something common for that maker. Besides that the missing SS runes and '7' with a cross bar were puzzeling too .
I take it then from Dave's responce that leather washers are not period installed, and that this maker had that kind of 7 with no SS runes ?
Fisher Quick Ref.2003 indecates "only one found to date" , don't know how reliable it is, and Dave H has seen 3 or 4 ....would indecate being only a very few of them made ? Why is the price not 2 or 3 times more ?
Beside , any washer being an immediate suspicious thing why not remove it befor displaying it for sale ? I thought Weitze was very picky what they bought and sold .
Douglas

Interesting. I have personally bought 2 SA's over the years with what I consider to be original to the piece leather washers. They may have been installed by the SA guy in the period. These washers were perfectly formed. My opinion is that, yes they are a big red flag, however they can be original. I suspect that since they are not "textbook" some collectors have just removed them over the years. Interestingly enough I have removed the washers and found that the blades are still perfectly fit to the guards. I hope TW comments on this in his upcoming book. I am not commenting on this particular dagger rather only on my experience. I would be interested to hear from Ron W. on this subject given his extensive experience with hotel buys.

Leather washers on German sword blades was standard practice for a number of reasons. It helped keep water out of the scabbards, minimized rattling, and cushioned the hilt especially when the swords were returned to their scabbards. Swords tended to be used outdoors in ceremonies, exposed to the elements, where all of the preceding would have applied.

While political daggers were carried in ceremonies, I don’t recall any where the blades were removed from the scabbard and used to salute or waved around. The springs held the blades fairly tightly in the scabbards, and a close fit between the mouthpiece of the scabbard and the crossguard would have minimized the intrusion of water. My point being that the use of washers was not really needed for daggers.

Having said that I also have seen a few examples of daggers with leather washers which I thought were most likely period installed. What gave washers in general a really bad reputation were the fakes which used them to conceal bad fitting parts. I suspect that some daggers, especially those that exhibit some signs of corrosion at the juncture of the blade and crossguard, originally may have had washers on them - which I am inclined to agree were removed because they were “not textbook”.

Good rundown Fred.

quote:

While political daggers were carried in ceremonies, I don’t recall any where the blades were removed from the scabbard and used to salute or waved around.

I may recall seeing a clip of the SA drawing their daggers from their scabbards during the movie Triumph of the Will, but I cannot be certain. Anyone?

IMO and due to my experiences the KREBS firm is known for puting leather washers on daggers where no other manufacturer has put them on. E.g. there are some KREBS RAD leader hewers known with leather washers. Period installed, due to the construction of the hewer. Unfortunately they did it not always do it so there is no rule. But for me the KREBS firm seems to have favoured leather washers and therefore daggers of this firm, whatever branche, might have a period one.

The responce to my post has been more than I expected and very informetive . The use of washers then seams to have been not uncommon for swords and some hewers .
I take it then that the RZM office did not object to the sporadic use of washers on daggers because of there use already in other areas, swords etc ?? And all the daggers that have washers ... are they found more on 33 or 36 model, EM, chained, early, mid or late period issued daggers ? Any trend here ?
LST indecated Tom Wittman is bringing out a new book, what will it be ?
The reponce from all is much appreciated.

Douglas

After reading the posts from Prinz, Borse and Wotan I did a search on makers and and very surprized what I found.
The use of leather washers , felt like disks or pads is not a rare thing at all. Many small and big makers seam to used them quit frequently on all other edge weapons , hewers knives , daggers, of all kinds swords, deggens and bayonets. As picture sample below shows they come in ALL sizes , shapes , colors and in 3 thicknesses as well . Wounder if one could have requested to have a pad put on ones own SS Dagger as a speacial feature ? The makers had plenty on hand anyway ?
No wounder the odd SS Dagger is found with one , even it not being regulation . Most makers probably had boxes of them?
The pictures below show no SS items, are for demonstation purpose to show disks or pads only, suppose to be all original, which is unimportant for now, .... a quick and small cross section of some items and is by no means complete !
All items happen to be from one dealer: Richard Miller.com only !
Inconsistancy in shape , size and thickness very noticable....but just pointing out something I found interesting .
Douglas 5
Page 1

Page 2

In all my motel buys, I have never found an SS Dagger with a washer. I have found one SA Dagger with a washer and a few NPEA Daggers with the felt washer. Just my experience.
I have also seen a couple of SA Daggers with washers and even two with leather covered scabbards that were not honor daggers, so it was period possible for political daggers to have a leather washer. However, all the ones with leather that I have come in contact with were EARLY, not from the RZM period.
From my point of view, for anything to be non-regulation, the SS were the last organization to vary.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I know a UK collector who always puts a washer on all SS and SA daggers he buys soon as he gets them home. He claims it creates a seal and helps prevent damage to the blade from moisture etc. I don't subscribe to it but thats what he swears by.Maybe these daggers turning up with washers come from previous collectors with the same idea.

John,

Do you have a luger ?

Dave

?? Is that directed at myself

Let me also add,that from a preservation view,it may not be advisable to allow for two different metals to touch.
You find this with some daggers.