Hello Everyone,posting photos for Rob NL for opinions, Regards nats

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Red flag... the RZM code should read the other direction. Towards the tip rather than towards the crossguard. The grip and the motto also look like possible reproductions.

... and the motto shouldn't have that "pimpling" look to it.

It also has a washer on it.
Rob

Here a photo of the washer,Regards nats

Gailen told me that it was not uncommon to see original washers on SS daggers in the early days. But since most people consider that a problem most of the washers were eventually removed.

Hold on here.

The etching direction is not necessarily wrong. I spoke with Tom Wittmann about this a couple of years ago and I'm pretty certain that he replied in the positive (I would need to trawl through my research papers to confirm...so I'm not saying anything definitive.

The pimpling is not at all a sign of an unauthentic etch quite often the acid can react like this; Could 121/34 be Böker (?) Rhetorical.

The felt pad is not a worry at this juncture.

The dagger just needs a good going over by an SS expert (I'm not one but given what my memory can recall of this unknown maker I would not write it off on first sight).

Regards,
Neal

Yes Neal, the etching is wrong. Both the 120/34 and 121/34 daggers read towards the blade tip, your vague recollection of a distant conversation notwithstanding.

You may well be right, Skyline; my comments were not set in stone.

regards,

I guess pimpling isn't that bad, as many Boker's seem to show this trait but a 121/34 is an unknown maker.

Usually pimpling can occur with different steel/acid formula/composition or the strength of the acid but I haven't seen/noticed this to be a trait in a 121/34.

Hi guys, if it is a fake , then the people that made them are retarded to put the mark on the wrong way. If you would fake it why not make it totally textbook??
Help me out here!!
Rob.

Rob,

I have gone over some old forum threads (from three years ago) and it would appear, on balance, that the consensus is that this version of the etching is incorrect. The other comments, pimpling, felt buffer did not and do not necessarily equate to red flags but the inverted runes and RZM number does seem to draw general negativity.

Yours safest bet (even if it did in time prove to be okay) would be to get a refund as you'll not sell it on with any ease.

Regards,
Neal

This old 121/34 debate may be of help:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/8533003676/p/1

Regards,

Thanks Neal , now I am really confused..
Thaks for your response,Regards ,Rob.

Wittmann states in his SS dagger book that both the 121 ans 120 daggers should read towards the tip. In other words you would have to hold the blade to read the RZM code correctly, not the handle.

I agree that the RZM mark is on the blade the wrong way. I would stay away from this one. Here is mine to compare;

Also, even though the picture is blurry, the Eagle looks like it's aluminum, the ss button looks wrong, and the fittings look plated. All of which are wrong for an RZM 121/34.

(BTW, the above picture was expertly taken by JR before I was lucky enough to score this wonderful dagger. Thanks JR!)

Chief

Okay... I know this will raise hackles...but

To enhance this thread I'll throw in this one as they do belong together. Good points were made from both sides of the fence.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/8203019617/p/1

I recalled it from an e-mail Tom Wittmann sent me together with a follow up telephone conversation I had with Tom and a diary entry where I took notes.

He genuinely was of the opinion that the inversion of etching could well be authentic.

I have no more knowledge to add to the debate.

As with anything, I like to keep an open mind, that is all.

It would be easy to keep an open mind to wrong variations when your livelihood comes from selling to others. Yes? There is no debate here Neal, except with yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline Drive:
It would be easy to keep an open mind to wrong variations when your livelihood comes from selling to others. Yes?

If you say so. Though I'm not selling; a member was seeking answers. I merely recalled there was debate about this. I may be in a minority when it comes to questioning. But I continually got the highest marks in my classes for doing so.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline Drive:There is no debate here Neal, except with yourself.

Would the (impartial) moderator kindly remove the preceding personal and offensive remark?

;o)

quote:

Originally posted by anythingww2:
Wittmann states in his SS dagger book that both the 121 ans 120 daggers should read towards the tip. In other words you would have to hold the blade to read the RZM code correctly, not the handle.

No he doesn't...at least not quite like you put it.

When I spoke with Wittmann (after having sent him pictures of an inverted 121/34) he could not recall having previously seen the inverted version of the 121/34 SS dagger in person. From a conversation I had with him some time later which I recorded in my notes he referred me to pages 184 SS 1053/88 WKC and page 20 SS 188/35 and said (I wrote down) "anything is possible...we don't have all the answers". That was a class response and one I would hope to get from a person as keen to learn today as he was when he first started collecting. He asked me to send the dagger but I no longer had it.

Yes, it may be a post war fake but Tom wasn't going to say so without first seeing it in person. That is not always how GD.Com members operate.

Regards,

Hi Neal
I may not have quoted TW exactly as I summurized what he wrote ( I was too lazy to go get the book for an exact quote). But he does show pics of both 120/121 daggers with the Marks as I described. ANyway good luck with this dagger Hope it works out well.

Bob,

When Tom wrote his book he had not actually seen (from memory) a dagger with the RZM SS numbering sequence inverted. That is why it is not mentioned.

However, it's not my dagger, I was just trying to find the most liberal way possible to help elucidate the possibilities with this RZM numbering format for the benefit of the owner who was/remains confused to its authenticity.

If the purchaser of this dagger can get leave of time from the vendor to send it to Tom Wittmann then perhaps he should do so to help put to rest this rogue once and for all.

Tom was very keen to handle one for himself before committing to a decision. I can't say for certain if the dagger is right or wrong.

regards,

Hi guys, more info; crossguards are marked E W and are nickel-silver, scabbard is painted and the etching on the blade and motto have remains of cross graining.The eagle is is also nickel silver.Traces of silver polish between eagle and grip and also in crossgaurds.
The SSbutton has a copper colour and is flat.
Pics on the way thanks to Nats.

Hi Everyone,some more photos from Rob NL

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