Hello, fellow members. I need help from a Third Reich document expert in filing a claim with PayPal for what I believe to be a fraudulent sale (to me) of documents. Before PayPal will process my claim, I must fax them an expert's opinion that the documents are false, as claimed, on the expert's letterhead stationery or appraisal sheet. If you are such an expert or know of one, please let me know. Many thanks in advance.

Hi Grumpy
I would recommend that you email some of the more qualified dealers round the world.
Look on the advertising list, maybe you already have.
What about Don Doyle, I think thats the name who does the honour rings. He would be up to date with documents.

regards
Judas

Grumpy, does this involve a famous,,or should I say infamous personalties signature? Or are you questioning the document as a whole?

It's two documents from the same seller. One is a medal award document. The other is a Christmas greeting, purportedly signed by Himmler. I have no doubt both are fake, but need an appraiser's or expert's confirmation to get PayPal to move on it.

I have been unintentionally remiss in updating this thread. I received several suggestions I contact Don Boyle regarding this matter and reluctantly did so. I just didn't want to waste his time and thought he would have better things to do than address my problem. Don was very kind and helpful in assisting me and I am deeply appreciative. I am still waiting to hear the "verdict" from PayPal and will post it here when I receive it. Whichever way it goes, I am appreciative of Don's help, time and expertise. The hobby is fortunate to have someone like Don in it.

thats good news it makes life that much easy when people are willing to help as they just dont know when they mite need it them selfs kind regards judas

I wish you good luck and I'm sad to hear what happened. As a newby, can you shed some light on how you know it was a fake? Pointing those types of things out can help us all when examining things.

Thanks.

Jim

glad Don was able to help,,he's one of the good guys...

Good question, Jim. First, I have extremely limited knowledge of paper items. The two documents, one an LAH iron cross award, the other a Himmler Christmas greeting, were bought on eBay from the same seller in Australia in the wee hours of the morning. He had respectable feedback at the time. The envelope they arrived in was shabby and not well packed. This was my first hint that something was awry. Most reputable sellers take some care in packing. This thing looked like the seller didn't care whether it got here safely or got here at all. Upon opening the package, I found both documents were laminated in plastic, something the seller failed to mention in his ad. According to Don, this lamination reduces the value by about 75%. Also enclosed was this rambling note that the items were bought from someone who represented them as authentic and if they are real, I made a good purchase. No mention was made in his ad about questionable authenticity. Flags all over the place! Then, I placed them under black light. The IC document glowed like Times Square at midnight. A sure indication the paper is postwar. The Himmler document did not glow. Well, I thought, maybe that one could be real. BUT, after examining the reverses, I found both bear identical "splatter" marks of some brown liquid, undoubtedly applied to give the appearance of age. Having some experience in forensics, I compared the typewriter printing on both documents. They appear to have been made by the same typewriter. I emailed the seller more than once, stating I wished to return the items and the reason. I never received a reply, after weeks of waiting. I complained to PayPal, who initiated an investigation. I left objective negative feedback for the seller after months of waiting and he responded with nasty, vitriolic feedback for me, even though I paid him within 24 hours after the auction closed through PayPal. Thanks to the forum, I got in touch with Don, who confirmed glowing paper is postwar and the "Himmler" signature isn't even close to a real one. In the meantime, the seller has received considerable additional negative feedback and continues to lash out at those who left it for him. Moral: Stay away from areas you know little or nothing about. If you dare venture into them, seek the advice of someone knowledgeable before you buy. On the positive side, the damage done was not as bad as it might have been. The amount spent was not "peanuts," but not huge. I now await PayPal's verdict, after forwarding Don's conclusions to them.

Wow, that stinks. Thanks for the detailed explanation. These kind of hints really help our hobby.

As for PayPal, I recently had an ebay issue. I bought a small photo album that had only one picture on the add, and it was of only 1 of the photos, not the album. The seller was new and from Germany. I had him email me additional pics several times before the auction, but every time the pics didnt work. I ended up taking a chance and bought it anyway because the price was so low ($37 with the shipping).

Then, the day after I won, he is all of a sudden no longer a registered user. I waited about 4 weeks and emailed him several times that I didnt get it yet. He finally emailed me that it was returned to him and he was sending it again... I was skeptical. Finally after another 2 weeks, I started a complaint with PayPal. They opened a claim and the seller never responded within the 10 days. On Monday I got $33.32 back from Paypal. On Tuesday the album arrived at my house!!! I emailed him that as soon as the credit was posted back to my credit card (a few days PayPal said) that I would submit another payment back to him for the $33.32 refunded amount. I did that the following Monday.

Thankfully, my problem was a communication problem and a poor shipper (two months), but I did get my album and although it wasn't the find of the century it was a good album for the price with some interesting Warsaw Ghetto photos (wall, gates, and a Jewish Only trolley too) as well as many others.

Reason I told this long story is PayPal will refund you the amount if the seller has the money in his PayPal account. If, like I do, I deposit my money in the bank and leave PayPal empty, I think you may have some issues getting money back. Unless, he is one of those sellers that has the guarantee through PayPal. In my case, I got the $33.32 back and they said they would keep trying for the remainder. I think they garnish his account so the next time money is put in, it goes to me.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Jim

The latest chapter is, several weeks after I sent them Don Boyle's conclusions, PayPal emailed me and said that wouldn't do and I had one week to send them appraisals on a letterhead with address, telephone number, etc., of the appraiser. I went to a local acquiantance who came to the same conclusions as Don and I faxed PayPal the results. I'm now waiting to see what happens next. I'm not all optimistic, but, at least, perhaps, I let the seller and PayPal know he was caught and some of us don't "roll over" that easily for swindlers.

Forgive me, but I am not familiar with Don Boyle. Is he a professional or someone this forum regards very highly? I wonder why they wouldn't accept his word?

Good luck and keep us informed.

Jim

Ask Bill Shea for this, he has already Narnia reputations when they like this more.

The problem with PayPal is they don't know what they are doing. Anyone familiar with handwriting and signature examination knows it is not necessary to work from the original, as long as you have a crisp, clear copy. They have a point on the other document, though. I told Don it glows under black light (which it does) and, of course, he confirmed what most of us know: that is a certain sign of postwar paper. PayPal wanted him to physically examine the document. PayPal, like eBay, does things its own somewhat rigid way. They don't care what you, the buyer, knows or has discovered about an item. The evaluation or appraisal must come from a third party, in writing, with a letterhead, address and telephone number (in case PayPal wishes to contact him). The appraisal must then be faxed to PayPal. Heaven knows what happens next. Don is one of the most imminent experts in the hobby, especially in the area of SS honor rings and signatures. I would put my faith in his opinion on anything he is familar with.

Hang on to your seats, guys. PayPal held in my favor and has credited a refund to my credit card. I had to pay $20.00 to return the junk items to Australia, but, of course, it was worth it. I guess it pays to hang in there and be just as stubborn as the crooks. For future reference, don't hesitate to complain and have a third party in mind to conduct an appraisal of bogus or suspect items. The seller in my case has been well "flagged" by PayPal and, hopefully, will deal more honestly in the future. Many thanks, again, to Don Boyle.

And, the name and eBay alias of the seller is ......


Grumpy - Shine a light on this guy !!

Dave

His eBay identifier is frog923. I will have to look up the name. Not sure I still have it. The PayPal account is under a female's name. Will try to find it and post it. This guy's pretty nasty and more than a little cheeky and arrogant. Based on his feedback, he has some happy buyers, but I'm not one of those. The last I checked, he had 6 negative feedbacks.

The PayPal account holder is Stephanie Flowers, Lara, Victoria, Australia. I don't recall the seller's name, if I ever saw it. Probably used a first name only. I am delighted to get this mess behind me and, hopefully, it will soon be forgotten (by me, anyway).