New swords

Sorry guys ,its been so long had a bit of a cock up .WKC officers its a bit shiney have you ever seen them replated ?Robert Klass NCOs ?how can you tell if its TR no stampings thanks Graeme .

WKC

You'll need to elaborate on your question regarding the WKC Heer officer/NCO piece. I'm not clear if you are referring to the blade or the hilt replating.

The 2nd saber, appears to be TR era. Check for markings, as this is always the best criteria to use when ascertaining a date. However...on your example, assuming it has never been fiddled with by anyone, it appears to have aluminum grip wire. This indicates the saber was manufactured TR era. I also believe the chemical compounds used to manufacturer the celluloid grips evolved during the early NS-era, which created a higher degree of reflective luster. I have no evidence of this assertion, simply an observation based off comparisons of my various sabers from Weimar-era, early NS-era and mid/late-era NS era. Perhaps Fred, Jim, George or someone else with more than a cursory understanding of manufacturing technology during that time can elaborate.

I assume the EM saber is brass hilted? Not too often encountered, but we do periodically see various brass pattern sabers with aluminum grip wire.

Tom, Celluloid (cellulose nitrate) plastic has been around a long, long, time (late 19th century). With some Imperial era swords, it was in fact, used as a low(er) cost substitute for the normal sharkskin covered grips on officer’s swords. And is also seen with many EM dress swords. (A little later on, one of its main competitors in the market place was Bakelite. Which is much less heat sensitive and better suited to military applications.)

Where it gets a little more complicated is with the later introduction of cellulose acetate which was generally much less flammable. Not so much with the end product (because additives could be used to decrease the flammability). The problem being more in the area of manufacturing. Especially with mass production, becoming very popular in the U.S.

That said, the only major maker in Germany during the TR era was the I.G. Farbenindustrie AG. (no surprise there). With the balance of the cellulose plastics makers in Germany producing Celluloid. Best Regards, Fred

PS: They both look TR to me also.

Thank you for the clarification Fred.

I've noted what appears to be variances in the structure between various era celluloid/petroleum based grips, mostly as it applies to the general appearance. Perhaps there is nothing more to the observation than the wear which comes from age and any breakdown in the material. Again, just an observation between samples of different era sabers I own.

Good collecting,
Tom

One other thing that I might point out is the plain hilt Klaas sword has a re-enforcement block at the juncture of the crossguard and the P guard. This often indicates the sword is an "Officer" sword according to the catalogs. Enlisted swords usually do not have this block so this sword may be an officer sword as well. I can't tell if it is polished or plated or if it is gold or silver finish in color.

Hi SF,Orpo ,it was the plating on the hilt i was on about its seens to a bit bright for 60 years old,but it could have been tucked away all these years .Do you know when loose rings came onto scabards my imperials are fixed . The hilt and the wire are both brass on the "NCOs"

"NCOs"

I think your brass NCO is a plain Jane Officer model. NCO swords were typically nickel plated. As a general rule the fixed rings changed around the time of the Weimar Republic but you will still find some early NS Zeit swords with them.

That grip wire looks very aluminumesque. Perhaps it's simply photo trickery.

I think George is right regarding the block at the joint. As such, I had reviewed a number of period photos of EM with sabers in wear, as well as period images of officers wearing plain hilted sabers as well. The vast majority of photos illustrated sabers with corresponding knots in place, thus ascertaining the presence of the block nearly impossible in the photo.

George- I can't find the model number of the Klaas saber he posted. By chance do you have the number? I'm unable to find my scans of period Klaas catalogs.

**George- sent JR your way as he's got a question you might be able to help him with.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I think I got JR the information he was looking for. The Klaas NCO sword is their Nr.228 that is listed as a "Mannschafts-Eigentums-Säbel." It has no block on the guard. The sword that graeme shows is the Klaas Nr.230 with the guard block. It is listed as an "Offiziersäbel" in their catalog. The Nr.230 sold for RM 14.65 and had a gold finish. The Nr.228 sold for RM 10.50 and had a nickeled steel hilt.

George

Thanks George. I still can't find my Klaas catalog scans. I'm fearful now they were deleted inadvertently.

Glad you were able to help him out with the measurements.

Tom