Just a quick question but I would like to find out if this material that we see on early daggers generally was used on hirschfänger before the 3rd Reich, we see Silver fittings but is that the same material, I personally cannot remember seeing quite this material on anything other than 3rd Reich pieces.It's the way it has that blue sheen once it has picked up the deep patina, I don't remember seeing it earlier. Anybody have an example they might post, most hirschfängers certainly during the Weimar period had fitting with gilt over brass, tombac, blued steel or black painted, I'm sure there were a couple other materials used but what about this material we call Nickle Silver??

Thanks

Gary

Nickel silver or solid nickel was used quite often on early pieces. Early Nazi Hunting Assn. dagger parts were silver plated brass or brass alloy,or silver plated solid nickel. Later hilts are silver plated aluminum alloy with silver plated nickel or steel scabbard fittings.

Houston, would silver plated solid nickel fittings be magnetic ??.

Gary

Nickel Silver is a copper alloy containing typically 65% cu.,18% ni., bal zinc.has silver hue and was developed by German jewellery industry in early 1800s.Contains no elemental silver.Is a NON ferrous alloy therefore would be non magnetic.Solid nickel is ferrous and would be magnetic.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Thank You very much Seiler.

Much appreciated

Gary

Solid nickel in collector terms means a solid nickel alloy--and not magnetic.

I have always used the term (nickel silver) not (solid nickel) in collector terms. But maybe my owning of a die shop and dealing with platers weekly I have to use the correct terms. James

In collector terms I think all of these terms mean the same thing to collectors--they do to me anyway. --nickel silver, solid nickel, or just nickel. German silver was the old term. All mean a nickel alloy.
If just nickel plated--that is a different thing. Some will use this nickel or nickel silver term to deceive or perhaps they don't know any better-- because in reality they are talking about a plated item that probably is pot metal or steel.

quote:

In collector terms I think all of these terms mean the same thing to collectors--they do to me anyway. --nickel silver, solid nickel, or just nickel. German silver was the old term. All mean a nickel alloy.

Yes, I understand what you are saying, to a collector of swords and daggers the word (nickel) can be used many ways and can mean many things. Regards: James

Collectors often seem to have their own language when trying to describe some observed characteristics of what they collect. Sometimes it’s possibly because of a mistranslation such as “burnishing” for Brünierung. Or possibly a lack of specific knowledge when using “anodizing” for brüniert (which in the U.S. is known as "browning" for the brown colored oxides, and “bluing” when referring to the blue/black colored oxides). And sometimes it's just there in the collecting vocabulary for one reason or another.

For what we call “nickel silver”, the Germans generally used Neusilber or Weisßkupfer. With the older German alloys there might have been some justification in using silver as part of the terminology because they contained silver as a component alloy. For modern usage I think that ‘white copper’ (Weisßkupfer) is probably the more accurate description. With an upper limit of 30/35% for nickel for most uses, and cheaper grades down to (roughly) 7% nickel. The point being that its really a copper based (cupro-nickel) alloy using other metals to take away the reddish coloration, and at the same time hardening the copper to make it more durable (maximum hardness at about 50% nickel). FP

Here we go.....
Many alloys fall within the general term of "nickel silver". All contain copper and nickel, while some formulations may additionally include zinc, antimony, tin, lead or cadmium. A representative industrial formulation, Alloy No. 752, is 65% copper, 18% nickel, and 17% zinc. In metallurgical science, such alloys would be more properly termed nickel brass. The white alloy of 75% copper and 25% nickel used in coins, such as the United States nickel, is better known as copper-nickel, cupro-nickel or cupronickel.

Some nickel silver alloys, especially those containing high proportions of zinc, are stainless (corrosion-resistant).

Nickel silver alloys are commonly named by listing their percentages of copper and nickel, thus "nickel silver 55-18" would contain 55% copper, 18% nickel, and 27% other elements, most probably entirely zinc. A two-element alloy may be named for its nickel content alone, thus NS-12 is 88% copper and 12% nickel.


[edit] Uses
Nickel silver first became popular as a base metal for silver plated cutlery and other silverware, notably the electroplated wares called EPNS (electro-plated nickel silver).

It is used in zippers, better quality keys, costume jewellery, for making musical instruments (e.g., cymbals), and is preferred for the track in electrically powered model railway layouts as its oxide is conductive. Also, after about 1920, its use became widespread for pocketknife bolsters, due to its machinability and corrosion resistance. Prior to this point, most common was iron.

It is widely used in the production of coins (e.g. GDR marks, Portuguese escudo).

Its industrial and technical uses include marine fittings and plumbing fixtures for its corrosion resistance, and heating coils for its high electrical resistance.

It was used in the construction of the Arly tricone resophonic guitar. It is also used to produce the tubes (called staples) onto which oboe reeds are tied. Guitar frets are made from it, as well on mandolin, banjo, bass, etc.

Musical instruments, including the flute, saxophone, and French horn can be made of nickel silver. For example, some leading saxophone manufacturers such as Keilwerth, Selmer, P.Mauriat, Yanagisawa, and Yamaha offer saxophones made of nickel silver which possess a bright and powerful sound quality; an additional benefit is that nickel silver does not require a lacquer finish. For that reason also, it is the most commonly used woodwind keys material - most clarinets, oboes and similar wind instruments have nickel silver keys. I think the covers it.. James

Found on the web

My family is allso third generation instrument builders.. This is why I use the term Nickel silver so much...

Really not wanting to get into a major discussion of alloys, sometimes you have to go beyond web abstracts to get a better picture of what is done in industry and general practice. For example the statement: "and heating coils for its high electrical resistance" might better describe alloys of nickel and chromium. With 80/20 (nickel/chromium) being a typical alloy ratio for that kind use. The reason being that the alloys not only have to have electrical resistance to generate heat, but they also have to resist oxidation. And copper, which is an excellent electrical conductor, also does not handle oxidation (especially at high temperatures) particularly well. FP

If I had what we generally call "Nickle silver" fittings would I get a magnetic reaction?, what I am getting is not a strong reaction but it's definately attracted to a magnet.

Cheers

Gary

Yes, you can have (some) magnetic reaction. Nickel is magnetic. And depending on the alloy mix etc... James

Thank you very much James

Cheers

Gary

Gary I have owned 1870s-1900 hunting daggers with nickel silver fittings. But, sold what I had sometime ago. Sorry no pictures