I am new and have a few questions, starting with, were all of the different daggers meant to be part of the dress uniform for photos and such? Were any of the WW2 German daggers used for weapons? or just for dress?

The Fire Service, Navy, and HJ already had daggers before the TR.

There is no explicit reason stated for the issue of the first daggers to the SA and SS. My opinion is that it was reward for their years of fighting for the Party and was done to make them look quasi-military without spending a lot of money or giving them something with which they could hurt anyone but themselves.

After the SA and SS got them, there was a flood as most other organizations got in the act.

The only ones actually used were the HJ scout knives or the FJ paratrooper knives. The rest were strictly for show. I know of no incidents when they were used on the enemy.

Dave

It’s an interesting topic, that is something that might not be clear to new collectors and others interested in German militaria. Dave has already covered some of the basics, and like he did, I am going to use some generalizations versus going into a lot of detail.

To elaborate just a little, during the Imperial era there came into being a class of dress swords known as “Extrasäbel”. Which were essentially private purchase dress versions of service weapons. Being a very uniform conscious society Infantry soldiers purchased dress versions of their service bayonets, and certain paramilitary organizations and even civilians also got into the act to a limited extent. During WW I swords which had been the badge of rank for officers became potentially lethal to the wearers because of the nature of trench warfare. And certain types of dress bayonets were carried as more practical substitutes.

These traditions continued into the Weimar era and then it exploded. National Socialist Germany became even more uniform conscious than the Imperial era. With uniforms for young girls and almost every other facet of life in Germany - and especially in connection with anything to do with the National Socialist party. And dress daggers were created to “fill in the blanks” for those who felt they were left out of the first wave which were the first political daggers.

On the military side of the equation the Imperial traditions were generally followed with an increase in the numbers of daggers. Which now included the Luftwaffe. And besides the dress enlisted dress bayonets and swords. There are the military/combat issue: FJ gravity knives, boot knives, some swords, service bayonets etc. which are also collected.

With as he stated the exception of the military issue combat items. Dave’s statement “I know of no incidents when they were used on the enemy” being correct. FP

I had read that Hitler likened his Army's to the Roman Legion's who were dressed with a sword.Also what better way to rest the left hand than on a dagger.Dress the person for the part and we all become actor's on the stage.

i read i think in atwoods book, and i really believe the main reason was to put solegen back to work.not that it is the only answer.there were many reasons.i do not think hitler was much on daggers.

Paul Zaya is correct. It was just good business on Hitler's part. Massive unemployment in the Solingen area (60%) coupled with strong union support for Hitler and Solingen city leaders making the trek to Berlin and asking Hitler to do something to put the people back to work. Hence, order daggers for the party legions. Follow the Reichs mark.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

From my experience in reading and discussing this over the years, I also concur with Paul and Ron as this (economic depression, unemployment and the ability of Solingen to ramp up quickly) as being the main reason dagger production exploded. However the point raised by FP is valid as well. If you were caught in a trench with a sword you were probably an officer and easy pickin's.

Mark

Can someone also touch on the transition from formal dress sabers of the wehrmacht (excluding that of political organisations) to the use of formal daggers. What facilitated transition, why, and when it became doctrine for the substitution. Interestingly, the saber, which has always been identified with rank and position in the worlds industrial military services was traded for the formal dress dagger. Around the same time, many industrialized nations military service came to rely on technilogical advances in military hardware, particularly smokless powder weapons, and the phasing out of the practical saber in favor of a weapon merely for formal occasion. Understanding this is an obvious yet crucial element in understanding the de-evolution of the saber.

I frequently get asked why the formal saber was phased out in socialist Germany in favor of the Wehrmacht formal dress dagger. I can never form a particularly cogent answer on the reason why. Perhaps someone with intimate knowledge and understanding of the process can elaborate. Come the 30's, there was little practical neccessity of an edged weapon, with the exception of the bayo. Trench warfare and theparticular danger of inadvertant self inflicted wounds was no longer an issue. The process involved politcos of the time. I'd like to see some of the formal documentation as it relates to the transition.

My understanding is that sabers were generally for mounted troop as they were designed for slashing. Swords were generally for Foot troops and ornamental purposes.

As for a changeover from swords/sabers to daggers during the TR era, I am not sure it happened. You see pictures of both daggers and swords being worn by the Army/Navy/Lustwaffe up to about 1941 when pistols became more common.

Dave

The fact is that sabers and swords are still carried on dress occasions by the world's military forces including the US. Tradition is the word. There are still a few nations that still use daggers also.
IMO it will be a sad day when military tradition is deemed no longer important.

The Imperial era German Army used both curved and straight blades. The curved blade for artillery and some other mounted troops. And the straight blade (which was to be used like a lance) for the cavalry, and also the infantry. Early in the war the cavalry became infantry. And officers in trench warfare (badge of rank or not) could not realistically continue to carry swords if for no other reason than they got in the way preventing rapid movement. After WW I only the “new model” artillery saber survived to become the new Wehrmacht enlisted man’s cavalry saber. Specialized cavalry units having been disbanded.

As regards a "transition” as early as 1936 and before both swords and daggers were well advertised for sale to army officers and top grade NCO’s. Daggers were significantly cheaper than swords. And while I think that the sales of sabers no doubt declined as events overtook Germany and Solingen. So did dagger sales, and it may be hard to pin down a specific date or dates other than the various directives like the cessation of the award of SS swords, or dress sidearms from being worn instead of pistols etc. And instead may involve more subtle indicators like the substitution of zinc for brass or aluminum like other dress weapons.

PS: I also think that using the Luftwaffe as a brand new and possibly better documented arm of the Wehrmacht (instead of the German Army) might be helpful taking measure of how and when some of the changes took place. FP

As mentioned above the initial manufacture of HJ and SA/SS daggers was to stimulate the local economy of Solingen that was hard hit by the depression. With that success and the want by other services of their own dagger launched a massive revival of dress edged weapon production in Solingen.

In the German armed services, as in all other armies, there were regulations specifying the appropriate dress for any occassion while in uniform. German officers owned both the dress saber and dress dagger as part of their uniform kit. Depending on the level of formality, the regulations specified which side arm was appropriate. Usually the sword was for full dress and/or gala events. The dagger was worn with the service and walking out uniforms as a sign of the officer's status.

The precedent for wearing shorter edged weapons to show rank and position in place of the sword are not new with the Third Reich. During WWI many German officers are seen in photos wearing a dress bayonet with the officer's portepee in place of the sword. This tradition was carried over into the Weimar and early TR eras when the officer's dress bayonet wear was largely replaced when the appropriate dagger became available.

Sometime in 1944 with the war progressing badly for the Germans, the stipulation for dagger wear by officers was replaced with the order to wear pistols as side arms while on duty.

Hope this helps some.

Tony

Early in 1942 seems to be the end of production for dress sidearms. Also in 1942 it seems that Luftwaffe officers were required to buy pistols. Or alternatively secure a government property pistol from stores. With an order in December of 1944 directing that pistols be worn. And forbidding the wearing of dress blades (although I’m certain some theater directives preceded that).

Both the Luftwaffe and the German Navy procured government property swords and daggers for their senior NCO’s (Unteroffizier mit Portepee). The Luftwaffe even went so far as to acquire government property dress blades for some of its junior ranks (those with flight status).

Where I have a question regarding the German Army is this: I’ve seen government property dress swords for German Army Unteroffizier mit Portepee. However, I don’t ever recall seeing a government property dress Army officer’s dagger. And I think that I would have remembered something like that.

Something does not seem to be adding up. Because Unteroffizier mit Portepee were not what we would consider “second class citizens” in the hierarchy of the German Army. If anything the opposite was true, with NCO’s having more control at many (including larger) unit levels than officers. What piece of the puzzle is missing? FP

Fred, I am working on compiling all the dagger related instructions and regulations from the Heer/Luftwaffe/KM Verordnungsblaetter. In the meantime, it seems the most reliable source is probably the period "Uniformen der Deutschen Wehrmacht" by E. Hettler (Hauptmann im Reichsluftfahrtministerium), published in 1939.

On p. 45-6 he deals with the Heer specific regulations for dagger wear and confirms, for example, that AFTER PASSING officer exams, Oberfähnriche, Unterärzte etc could wear the weapons of the other Portepeeunteroffiziere, but that they were also allowed to wear the dolch with their walking out uniform (Ausgehanzug). This was also personally confirmed to me by first hand witness Hans Mehrle, while looking at period portrait photos of daggers in wear.

So i think the key here is the phrase "after passing officer exams". So these NCOs were practically officers and they would have had to purchase their own daggers as Hans Mehrle did at the Dresden Heereskleiderkasse upon graduating from Infanterie Schule Döberitz.

Pls let me know if this does not make sense

Thank You Gustavo!!!

It makes perfect sense to me and backs up my reexamination of an English translation of a period document which I now think was in error. Whereas you have "Uniformen der Deutschen Wehrmacht" (1939) to draw from which has to be a much better source.

I for one would be very interested in seeing the results of your study of the instructions/regulations. If it were in my power to add to what you already have, I would try to get the “Luftwaffen-Verordungsblätter” that the late Warren Odegard had to assist you. (He was the one who loaned his to R. J. Bender for his Luftwaffe book. And while I got some items from the estate through a good friend of mine who knew Warren, I don’t know where a lot of his original source material went which included some technical directives that I was particularly interested in.)

With My Best Regards, FP

Thanks Fred. Prof. Martin Schuster is compiling the info for me, in his "spare time". I will be glad to share as soon as we have something

There is some period anecdotal evidence of SA and SS daggers being used in street fights with the various red front groups..

HJ knives were to be found in every theatre of the war, due to their utilitarian nature..

Red cross EM hewers were to be found at the front and in the rear on their personell, again due to their usefulness in a medical emergency.

Heres an interesting paragraph on the OKW regulations regarding what to do with daggers at bars and pubic places. I have in my collection the right photos to illustrate this...

During this period, especially in the early years of 1935-1941, these "short side weapons", as referred to in the Heeresverorndnungsblatt 17 (1935), No. 202, had active social lives. In July 1938 the Supreme Wehrmacht Command (OKW) clarified what apparently was an open question: what to do with side weapons in public places like hotels, taverns etc. Side weapons including daggers had to be taken off and stored securely, either in the cloakroom, or, if there was no cloakroom, within the reach of the soldiers so as to make loss impossible..."In inns etc. where no cloakroom exists, Wehrmacht members in uniform are to take off their headgear, coats and side weapons as well, hanging them immediately next to themselves so as to make any loss impossible. Wehrmacht members remain responsible for equipment that has been taken off." (HVBl. 20 (1938), part B, No. 316, p. 214).



Taken from my page: http://www.zeitzeugen1939.com/material.html