This Klaas came from Wittmann in 1998. In his catalog he stated it was easily the earliest Klaas Army he had ever seen. Over the years I have noticed it does not have the three characteristics of early Klass Armies: Unique "Hi Swirl" crossguard, vertical graining on the center segment of the blade and of course the asterisks on the scabbard bands.

The only reason I believe it is an original Klaas is that the maker mark is unlike any that I have seen on other early Klass armies.

The mark above is larger than other early Klaas army marks(that I am aware of). Also it is very dark. The crane on the right (above) has legs that are longer than the other crane's legs and much longer than the "L" right beneath it. Finally, the bodies of the cranes are sunk into the blade.

Here is the maker mark of a very early Klaas. Though it is not a slant, it has the tapered tang. You can see the bodies of the cranes are much smaller. Their legs are shorter than the letters beneath them. ALso the letters are lined up differently beneath the cranes' legs.

Finally, the mark is only an outline. The bodies and legs are outlines and not sunk into the blade.

Just for interest, I have blown up the larger mark. Because it is sunk into the blade, it looks three dimensional. It also looks like the bird on the left has an eye.

Here are the fittings on the dagger. They are early Pack. Not what you would expect to find on an initial Klaas. However, this one has a unique guard, and I am thinking it may be one of the first made.

In the previous posts, you can see the horizontal graining which is also not what you would expect to find on an early Klaas army. Here is a pic of the scabbard bands. This is an early brass scabbard, but no asterisks:

I know there are a couple of Klaas slants out there. I am wondering if they have this larger maker mark? If not, I would like to assume this is very early production, before Klaas began making their own fittings.

I would especially like to hear from Paul Hogle on this since I know you have lots of early Klass armies. Also, I have seen another early Klaas or 2 on here. Can I hear from their owners?

Hi Ford,

Nice to see you back. Very nice dagger.

Very nice dager Ford. How far from the crossguard is the trademark? I also have an early Klaas that Whittmann thought may be an initial production dagger due to all the hand work that went into it.

The crossguard is very heavy with lots of custom work and is hand fit to the tapered tang perfectly.

*

1

Trademark is further from the cross guard than usual.

Here is the best part!

Ford so good to have you back!!
Eric, sweet piece!!
I try to buy every Klaas army I see. As long as it's reasonablly priced I put it aside. I figure some day people are going to realize how cool they are. Maybe that's a pipe dream... Regardless I love 'em.
In my experience the earliest of Klaas pieces had the maker mark stamped down the blade and were factory assembled with the maker mark to the obverse. Through time and collectors wanting stuff to be "textbook" most of the blades got turned so the maker mark faces the reverse. I know this for fact cause I have vet bought 2 examples like this. I have also owned examples that only fit this way. Ford where is your mark located?
The scabbard bands out of the factory IMHO all have astrixes. I say that and I have bought Klaas daggers with the double acorn stamped bands too. I have always felt that somewhere, somehow the scabbards got switched out along the line. Ford, I attribute these double acorn stamps to someone but not Klass. I would need to go through my archives to say but they come up over and over again. Bet we could nail it down with the communities participation.... Hey, that's just my opinion and Wittmann I'm sure has seen lots but I will hold to my view till I have more evidence.
It's ok, Tom and I do not agree on everything and that's what keeps things interesting!
Erics pattern crossguard I've always thought was Klaas's 1st pattern. I would love to see a good close-up of yours Ford. It appears to be a completely different mold? Very interesting.
Please Ford, do not take anything I said wrong. I am very open minded and I'm here to learn too....
Here are some Klaas Army variations for your viewing pleasure:
http://www.lakesidetrader.com/ebaypics/Klaas.jpg
http://www.lakesidetrader.com/ebaypics/Klaas1.jpg
http://www.lakesidetrader.com/ebaypics/Klaas10.jpg
http://www.lakesidetrader.com/ebaypics/Klaas11.jpg

Hi Eric:

Your dagger is exceptional, and has all the attributes of an initial production Klaas. It would certainly be the highlight of anyone's collection. I particularly like the early crossguards. You only see them on these initial production Klaas daggers. Having your own initials on one makes it even more special.

The maker mark on my dagger is in the standard position, not low like yours. I believe my dagger may have been sold by Klaas before they started making their own fittings. There are numerous examples of this kind of thing amongst army makers. It could even be said that Pack and WKC were the generic guards of initial production.

Here is the maker mark in perspective. Sorry, but I do not as yet have a photo editing software on my new computer.

A pleasure to see you post again Ford.

Great topic here on early Klass Army.
Actually I learned a lot from your past early unique "Weyersberg" Army thread. When I found one I was surprised it had a number inside the crossguard cavity. Appears it was an early short lived attempt at serial numbering.

-serge-

Hello Ford, although I cannot contribute to the wonderful and interesting KLAAS daggers shown here I want to say that I did miss you here very much. Glad you are back and hope you will stay.
Kind regards,

Thanks for the welcome everyone. Wotan, it is good to be back, and I’ll hang around this time. I have read the forum now and again, and you and Tom are doing a great job keeping things interesting and moving along.

Paul: I do not disagree with anything you said. You and Eric both make a good point regarding the positioning of the trademark. However, the correctness of your facts do not make mine incorrect. I believe we are both right. My whole point rides upon the legitimacy of the larger maker mark. If we assume that it is real, then I would like you to consider the following:

1) Different maker marks are generally used during different periods. (In this case I am asserting the mark may have been applied earlier in the period than yours or Eric’s) For many makers, larger trademarks mean earlier production. Just hang with me for a moment.
2) There are numerous examples of army makers using WKC or Pack fittings for their initial production and then going on to produce their own fittings or to generic fittings. The change over was often accompanied by a change in maker mark. (It is plausible that is the case with this dagger.) How many times on this forum have we seen a dagger by a well known maker show up in a configuration earlier than we thought existed, and with an earlier version of the maker mark? It almost all of these instances, these daggers are wearing early Pack or WKC fittings?
3) We know that Klaas DID NOT make the crossguard or the pommel for this dagger. (Why would we assume they made the scabbard?) It is totally plausible that they bought that as well.
4) The placement of the trademark could be the result of assembly during an earlier period. A very good explanation is that when Klaas began making their own unique and beautifully hand worked fittings, they changed their mark and proudly placed it where everyone would see it – on the front of the blade – beneath the national symbol.

My argument is not meant to diminish in any way the importance of yours and Eric’s daggers. They are quite likely the most beautiful daggers of the period. I am simply offering a possible explanation for this dagger. Admittedly, it could be totally bogus. On the other hand, now that it has been aired in public, perhaps another in the same configuration will turn up. In the end, repeatability is the acid test of authenticity.

Serge: Jaonos emailed me regarding the Weyersberg string. I cannot find it.

Ford,
I can't find it either. I don't know what to say. It was just here.
It was such an informative thread that you had on the early Weyersberg Army's that when I found some key additional info I added to your old thread. Janos found a serial number on his so did Lanser...but where is it now? That was not but a month ago.
Hello Vern - Dave, are our current posts STILL disappearing?
I want to know why that thread is gone? Can some of you guys comment who posted on it?
Sorry Ford. We still apparently have a problem here. I'll start a thread regarding this in the proper area when I return next week. Just feel frustrated at the moment.

-serge-

Good to see you here Ford!
In have an old multi blade hunting jack knife by Klaas that is right around WW2 period. Not sure if it is pre or post though. It is stainless I believe so may be post,it has three different maker marks on it on different blades. All impressed and blackened eccept for the main blade,that is not blackened. I will post a few pics when I get to it. May be interesting and telling to the wise folks here as it looks alot like your mark. Kevin.

Ford in the senario you present this is completely possible. Rare but yes, I agree. I expect that it would have took some time to get the molds made up to start up production. Klaas buying scabbards elsewhere again we know that such things happened.
I guess I should clarify my train of thought. What I was saying was that I don't think Klaas made the crossguard and scabbard of this dagger. On this we agree.
Again just to clarify, this does not mean it did not exit the factory exactly as we see it today, rather Klaas would have bought the components elsewhere.
Lastly, I do not have a maker mark executed in this way, as an outline. To be completely frank, the reason is I likely would have passed this dagger in my quest as it does not meet my "Klaas textbook" arrangement.
But, you really have me thinking now....

I very much enjoyed meeting you a few years ago and would love to hook up again. If you are going to the Max I would love the opportunity to look at this.
Lastly Ford it is so good to have you back. I admire your gentlemanly quest for knowledge in the hobby and in the process have taught us all so much.